It seems as though the Iranians want war with the West more than the West wants war with Iran. British military intelligence reports that the Quds Force, a unit within the Revolutionary Guards, has begun supplying the Taliban with the same kinds of terrorist bombs that have been put to use by al-Qaeda in Iraq:
Iran is supplying the Taliban in Afghanistan with the same bomb-making equipment it provides to insurgents in Iraq, according to British military intelligence officers.
US Army General Dan McNeill, the commander of Nato forces in Afghanistan, said that the discovery of more than 50 roadside bombs and timers in lorries crossing the border from Iran last month proves that Iran’s Quds Revolutionary Guards are actively supporting the Taliban. …
“I cannot see how it is possible for at least the Iranian military, probably the Quds force, to not have known of this convoy,” said Gen McNeill.
He claimed the vehicles contained materials to make explosively formed penetrators (EFPs), a type of roadside bomb. Britain and America have accused Iran of supplying such bombs to Iraqi insurgents. …
A spokesman for the British embassy in Kabul said yesterday: “This confirms our view that elements within Iran are supporting the Taliban. We have previously raised the issue of arms to the Taliban with the Iranians and will continue to do so.” Last month, Lt Col Patrick Sanders, the commander of British forces in Basra, said troops there were engaged in a “proxy war” with Iran, which was supplying Shia militias.
EFPs differ significantly from IEDs. The latter refer to bombs fashioned on the fly from leftover munitions; the ‘I’ stands for “improvised”. Iraqi insurgents and AQI terrorists culled shells left out in the open by the collapsed Iraqi military after the invasion before the US and Coalition forces could secure them all. For those who read the blog in 2004, recall that Mike the SEAL had the task of helping secure these sites when working as a private security contractor.
EFPs, however, do not get manufactured with scavenged parts. They have to be manufactured specifically for the task, and manufactured with some precision. That requires tool and dye works, a forge, raw materials, and some expert knowledge in both design and manufacture. It isn’t something the Taliban can produce in their nomadic wanderings around Waziristan. The only way the Taliban can get their hands on EFPs is to buy them, or have them donated — and only one nation in the area has the werewithal and the will to do either.
Iran seems determined to push its way into the war. Even the British recognize the Iranian design and manufacture of these terrorist devices, and they’re not exactly champing at the bit for a war with the mullahs. At some point, Iran has to pay a price for its actions in supplying our enemies and contributing to the deaths of our troops. We should have begun a serious information campaign against the mullahs after 1979 to bring democracy activists into power, and especially after 2001. We will likely have to pay the price for handling Iran with kid gloves, and the price will be a bloody attack on each other’s assets in the Middle East. Either that, or we signal that Iran can help kill our troops at will for as long as they like.
Iran is like a schoolyard bully. Ignore him and things get worse. Try to reason with him and he sees you as a coward. He will not go away. He will not let up in his attacks. The only choice you have to put an end to his attacks is kick his a$$ in a very serious manner. If you don’t stand up for yourself you will never have a moments peace from people like him.
Carter should have stood up in 1979. He could have set the example for the rest of the terrorist lovers of what happens when a bully picks on the wrong person. We are now going to pay a very high price for ignoring Iran’s hatred of the West.
Iran has looked at Iraq and has listened to our leaders in Congress. What they have heard no doubt encourages them to keep working to kill Americans. When a country sees cowardice from the leaders of your country,can you honestly expect that country to do anything else but keep up their fight against you?
There’s a reason the Iranian Embassy sits empty on Embassy Row in D.C. Jimmy Carter broke off diplomatic relations with the mullah regime when they seized our diplomats as hostages. That was Carter’s impotent response to an act of war. We endured 444 days of blindfolded American diplomats paraded in front of TV cameras after torture, humiliation, and abuse. And our President did nothing.
Almost 30 years later, we still don’t have diplomatic relations with Iran. Now they’re providing the means to kill our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. Iran’s economy is on the brink of collapse. I’d say we should give the Iranians another bloody nose, and their economy, a shove.
Iran is a peaceful country looking only to co-exist amicably with its neighbors in the region and in harmony with the rest of the world.
Iran wouldn’t be doing these bad things if we weren’t in Afghanistan and Iraq. If we leave now, everything will be all better. We are forcing the Iranians to act like this.
Iran isn’t really doing these bad things, this is just another lie from the Bush administration, trying to gin up an excuse to go to war against Iran to try and get its oil and a cheap supply of Persian rugs.
Iran is only doing these bad things because we supported the Shah of Iran and then encouraged Saddam Hussein in the Iran/Iraq war back in the ’80s.
Israel’s Mossad agents dressed up as Iran’s Revolutionary Guard are really the ones doing the bad things as part of a Zionist conspiracy to drag the West into war with Iran.
Iran good, US bad.
There, now none of our lefty friends has to post in this thread. I think I covered all their talking points.
I said it before and I will repeat it now:
We have to start sending back carefully targeted cruse missiles, one at the time.
I’d suggest exchange rate of 1 cruise missile for 3 to 10 EFPs.
There, now none of our lefty friends has to post in this thread. I think I covered all their talking points.
You’re spot on Bennett, but I think you left out…
“If we would just engage Iran in dialog we could all come to a reasonable understanding.”
Negotiations have failed. The IEAE has failed. The United Nations have failed.
We have evidence that a regime is supplying weapons for two of our enemies on two different fronts. These weapons are killing American and coalition soldiers who are trying to bring stability to the region.
On top of that, this regime is threatening the entire Middle East with their pursuit for nuclear weapons and the destruction of Israel.
My question is simple: When are those two carrier strike groups sitting on Iran’s doorstep going to start…carrying strikes?
That’s tool and die, not dye.
Actually explosively formed detonators don’t require any high technology at all to make. What my friends have seen in Iraq is that they are using concave truck wheels with explosive material packed around the convex side to make an improvised shaped charge. These are much more dangerous pound for pound than a simple explosive shell and detonator because the shaped charge will blow through a lot of armor, where a normal IED would only blow off a track or flip it over.
Last night, I got an email notice about Baghdad Jim’ McDermott’s speech on Iran being the Bush administration’s next target for war. Here’s the link to my post. It’s must reading if you want proof of how far McDermott’s out of touch with reality.
If Iran wanted war with the U.S. all it would need to do is lob a few missiles into Iraq.
What they want is to force us out of the ME. That’s why they’re supporting low intensity conflicts against us instead of directly attacking our forces.
Derek said..
Negotiations have failed. The IEAE has failed. The United Nations have failed.
We have evidence that a regime is supplying weapons for two of our enemies on two different fronts. These weapons are killing American and coalition soldiers who are trying to bring stability to the region.
On top of that, this regime is threatening the entire Middle East with their pursuit for nuclear weapons and the destruction of Israel.
Yes, and I would add one more. What our “war on terror” actually is, is an ideological struggle against Islamic Totalitarianism, and there is no greater advocate of Islamic Totalitarianism around the world, both in word and deed, than Iran.
There is no way we can defeat Islamic Totalitarianism without eventually taking on Iran.
The question facing the Bush administration though is whether bombing Iran will hasten the collapse of that regime, or prolong their reign by igniting Iranian Nationalism. I think both Bush and the Mullahs believe the latter, which is why they appear to be itching for a fight, and we have steadfastly refused to give it to them.
But the libs have told us that Sunni AQ/Taliban and Shiites could never cooperate on any terrorism plans. So this must be a neocon dodge to make us falsely believe that holy peaceful utopic Iran could actually support terrorists like the Talibani and AQ.
Bennett,
I thought for an instant that you’d lost your mind! But you’re spot on, of course: those are exactly the kind of mindless things that brainless liberals would say.
Scot,
I’m not an expert, but I think you are confusing an improvised shaped charge with an explosively-formed penetrator. Both are designed to punch through armor, but while the shaped charge uses a focused “jet” of hot gasses from an explosive in close proximity to the target, the other forms a “dart” from a sheet of metal that then slams through the target some distance away.
As for dealing with Iran, I say that we “donate” some things to them: say, a few hundred Mk-82 bombs delivered to Tehran via B-52.
“The question facing the Bush administration though is whether bombing Iran will hasten the collapse of that regime, or prolong their reign by igniting Iranian Nationalism.”
Perhaps Special Forces doing relatively small ops would be the answer. The U.S. could deny it and on the surface sound believable (which is what matters), Iran could pretend that it was internal dissent (which they have had plenty of) to save face diplomatically and politically, and it would send a message/warning to Iran. If they continued, then the next step would be (I assume) more public strikes against the bases/units that are associated with the support for terrorists.
I am figuring that a Democrat will be in the White House- Unless the voters come around and give us a third term for a Republican. Three terms in a row for either party is extremely rare, yes?
In light of this, I am very pleased that Bush has and will manage to keep us engaged in Iraq in the War on Islamofascism until after the election next fall. Then the Democrats can either LOSE to Iran, or get their act together and actually WIN and FINISH a war in OUR favor.
And with the nature of islamofascism being what it is, I expect that will require at least two terms of a Democrat president. Good luck, phony warrio- errr, politicians!
“If Iran wanted war with the U.S. all it would need to do is lob a few missiles into Iraq.
What they want is to force us out of the ME. That’s why they’re supporting low intensity conflicts against us instead of directly attacking our forces.”
That’s interesting. I always thought it was because they would never be willing to take us on directly since they wouldn’t have a hope in Allah’s green heaven of defeating the U.S. military one-on-one. Thus the need to operate through or with the assistance of proxies.
Folks, don’t lose track of what we’re really talking about when we say IEDs and EEDs. We’re talking about land mines. Remember 6-7 years ago when the Left was all up in arms about land mines and how there should be a worldwide ban on them? Remember how they condemmed the evil Americans for using them? Remember how Princess Diana cried on worldwide television over the bodies of children supposedly maimed by land mines?
What about now? Since America’s enemies have found that land mines are useful weapons for killing American soldiers, you don’t hear many protests about land mines, do you? Remember: Western freedoms bad, totalitarianism of any stripe good.
“It seems as though the Iranians want war with the West more than the West wants war with Iran.”
That is the understatement of the year and is a sorry summary of the positions of each of the 4 Administrations that preceded our present Administration. Hugh Hewitt had a terrific interview last night with Michael Ledeen on this very subject. Ledeen’s well informed conclusion matches my own not-sowell informed view from the right field bleachers–the present Bush Administration is making all of the same mistakes vis a vis Iran as its predecessors did.
Captain,
An EFP can be an IED. A tool and die works is not necessary to manufacture an EFP, although a machine shop with a forge and a metal turner is. The top of an EFP is a copper disk forged into a concave shape — such a shape is constructed by heating and turning a flat copper disk of the proper size.
[BTW, a tool and die works is used for manufacturing tools and dies, which are cutting implements needed by the machines which would build components of the EFPs. And example of a tool is a saw blade; an example of a die is the object which is used to cut screw threads on the end of a rod]
An example of an EFP was the German Panzerfaust of WWII; the bulbous warhead contained a concave conical piece of copper behind which was placed a black powder charge (the bulbuous front with the rod was to activate the detonator at the proper distance away from the tank’s armor). They were cheaply and easily produced, and killed a lot of Russian tanks during the Battle of Berlin. In fact, the methods of production of the Panzerfaust certainly were similar to those of Iraqis building IEDs (recent centcom reports indicate that machine shops building EFPs have been found in Iraq).
Copper plate of the proper thickness and shape for a modern EFP is rather difficult to come by, so I have no doubt the Iranians are in on this.
The design of an EFP is also serious stuff — you need test rigs, etc. to assure you are building something that works.
I think the Iranians are providing copper disks and plans in Iraq, and are providing initial shipments of finished EFPs as well as design models to the Taliban, given your finding.
unclesmrgol,
It has to be spelled out: EFP requires a precisely formed metal disk shape AND a very uniform shockwave (from a specific, high quality explosive) to fold the disk into a “fist” traveling at 2000m/s. A lot of things have to go right to make that happen. In this sense it is really a high tech weapon and has very little in common with the Panzerfaust of the WWII (except a very general idea).
That is why I keep repeating: Each 3 to 10 EFP devices should be answered with one, carefully targeted cruise missile…
What we need is a “deniable” smart bomb. This is a bomb that is designed not only to be accurate and powerful enough to destroy its target, but also that after it explodes it leaves as little of itself behind as possible in the debris. The idea is that when it hits an EFP factory there is some doubt whether the explosion was the result of a bomb or some idiot lighting a cigarette in the wrong place. It should also be designed with no markings or traceable components that could be used to positively identify the source (and be shown to Al-Reuters) in case the bomb malfunctions. In fact, it should be made exclusively using Chinese or Russian components including the explosive compounds and casing. Then we can start taking out EFP shops and Revolutionary Guards facilities at the rate of 1-2 week and when the Iranians complain, we can say “Prove it was us!”
Unfortunately we’re not that smart.
Jaylord ,
But I want them to know it’s us. If Iran thinks it’s fun to send EFP’s across the border, we send the B-2’s across the border.
And C-130’s.
With these.
“It seems as though the Iranians want war with the West more than the West wants war with Iran. ”
Imagine for a moment that there was TV station in Iran called Fox-ihaddi News, or something. Then, every night on that channel, talking-head after talking-head made comments saying “we should bomb and/or nuke the US” or asking questions like “should we nuke the US?” And then, let’s imagine that Iran had sent their military into Canada to free them from the repressive British forces that they are forced to be aligned with, and they’re fighting battles every day just across the border. Then imagine they sent troops to Mexico, to free those people from their repressive, corrupt government.
It’s a crazy metaphor, sure. But the point is, there IS no black and white. The only people who see things in absolutes are stupid people and megalomaniacs. The fact is, we have troops RIGHT NEXT TO THEIR BORDER, and blowhards on TV saying we should “nuke ’em”. Does NO ONE see that kind of saber-rattling as dangerous? Have we really descended into Star Wars/ Austin Powers territory, where the “bad guys” are bad just because their very soul is “evil”? Is it at ALL possible, that maybe the Iranians just want to be left alone?
Thank God there’s a candidate like Ron Paul to bring some sanity back into the discourse.
“Thank God there’s a candidate like Ron Paul to bring some sanity back into the discourse.”
Ron Paul…sanity…SNORT…GULP…GUFFAW!
“Thank God there’s a candidate like Ron Paul to bring some sanity back into the discourse.”
Heh.
It all makes sense now.
———————————————-
“We ask the West to remove what they created sixty years ago and if they do not listen to our recommendations, then the Palestinian nation and other nations will eventually do this for them,”
– Ahmadinejad
“Do the removal of Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations,”
– Ahmadinejad
“They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets.”
– Ahmadinejad
“Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury.”
– Ahmadinejad
“[There is] no significant need for the United States.”
– Ahmadinejad
“We don’t shy away from declaring that Islam is ready to rule the world.”
– Ahmadinejad
“Death to America”
– Ahmadinejad (and crowd)
“In Iran we don’t have homosexuals like in your country. We don’t have that like in your country. … In Iran we do not have this phenomenon. I don’t know who’s told you that we have this.”
– Ahmadinejad
———————————————-
Okay, so I added the last one for fun. Anyways, you were saying something about saber rattling?
Howard C,
You should start from students from Georgetown University taking hostage all of the personnel of the Iranian embassy, then holding them for a year and a half against basic customs of the civilized world, with full cooperation and approval of the President.
The reality is that they ARE bad guys and fanatics and you are just another apologist, making liberal excuses for “fascinating” murderous social experiments and regimes (“You can’t make omelet without breaking a few eggs”, or “I would invite Hitler to make a speech” type of guy).
They don’t give guys like you the same opportunity.
TomB,
The Panzerfaust was an EFP weapon. Period. wiki panzerfaust. click the external link labelled “panzerfaust — wwii german infantry anti-tank weapons. Scroll down about half of the webpage to the cross-section picture for “panzerfaust 100”. Locate the conical (trumpet-shaped) disk in its head. Carefully fix in your mind the shape of the conical disk and the location of the explosive charge behind the disk. And, then look carefully at this.
Q.E.D.
[sadly, the captain cans any post with two anchor tags, so I can only put one in. That’s why i’m having you wiki the other]
unclesmrgol,
As I said, the general idea is similar, but Panzerfaust and derivatives have to detonate at a specific distant from the target. To close, or too far, and the very thin copper jet will not form, or will disperse. EFP made by Iranians on the other hand is much bigger (explosive is ~30cm diameter, or more, projectile alone is ~500g). Projectile flies at ~2000m/s, ripping through and shattering all the armor.
But if you want to call a thin jet a projectile, then you are right.
TomB,
I do. Every weapon we use nowadays was invented during WWII.
The points you make about jet coherency are achieved by detonating the EFP shaping charge at a distance from the target that the EFP has time to form but not to disperse. The formation and dispersal distances were handled rather ingenuously by the Germans via the hemispherical shaped sensor on the front of the charge; the Iranian EFPs need a far larger charge to perform the same action that the panzerfaust achieved with less than a kg of explosive. After all, the Iranians are dealing with giving stuff to cowards (people who don’t want to be anywhere nearby when the thing goes off), so the design is different in a few respects to take that into account.
Taking a look at the panzerfaust article and seeing a smoldering soviet tank behind a bunch of guys carrying panzerfausts sure brings it home. They may have had to attack the side armor, but the physical effects are the same.
If you look at the slides for the “new generation” weapons (as of 2000), a thin stream (produced by multiple stacked liners) is now the preferred approach — you punch through the armor and more of the plasma reaches the interior spaces. There’s one slide showing a thin stream punch-through of about 25 inches of armor.
unclesmrgol and TomB,
I think you guys are confusing terms a bit. An EFP can be considered a special type of shaped charge, but it works on a different principle.
A conventional shaped charge is a warhead with a deep, conical cavity in front, usually lined with copper. When the warhead impacts a target, the explosive detonates, vaporizing the copper liner and forming a jet of high temperature plasma that cuts through armor. Any residual thermal energy burns the interior of the vehicle. This was the operating principle of the World War II bazooka and similar HEAT warheads on modern weapons such as the the Soviet RPG-7, the US AT-4, and the M-830A1 120mm round carried by the M-1A1 tank.
An EFP is similar in design, but the explosive “forges” a sheet of dense metal (such as steel) into a dart or penetrator that slams through armor. Damage to the interior of the vehicle is a combination of thermal energy (heat generated by the impact of the penetrator) and spalling from fragments of the penetrator and armor. The “penetrator” can also be made of a less hard metal such as copper, in which case the “penetrator” is effectively a bolt of plasma not dissimilar to a conventional shaped charge. Examples of EPF warheads in US service include the CBU-97 bomb, the SLAM landmine, and the SADARM artillery round. I’m not positive, but I believe that the EFP is fairly new technology, though the conventional shaped charge was developed (IIRC) during World War II.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_EFP,,00.html
With every week that goes by and Iranians still killing us at will my question remains”
“Why are the leaders of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, al Sadr etc still alive”?
If this is a war, they are the generals. They can be killed. The paper work was taken care of by Reagan when he put a missile down Qaddafi’s tent pole. Reagan did that because he accused him of, get this—terrorism!
EFP’s are being made in Iraq according to a military spokesman.
Iraqi and U.S. forces clashed with Shi’ite militia loyal to the radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr on Friday in a dawn operation aimed at returning the volatile city of Diwaniya to government control.
U.S. military spokesman, Lieutenant-Colonel Scott Bleichwehl, said troops, facing scattered resistance, discovered a factory that produced “explosively formed penetrators” (EFPs).
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL06480947