Seattle has spent the last couple of weeks redefining journalistic objectivity — downwards. First, the Seattle Times newsroom erupts in cheers when Karl Rove announced his resignation, and now the Post-Intelligencer refuses an FBI request to publish photos of men wanted for questioning after suspicious behavior on Seattle-area ferries. Rather than reconsider the decision, the P-I instead decides to use the story as a contest for haiku writers.
First, the P-I explains why it doesn’t feel a community responsibility to help the FBI:
The P-I last year reported that according to a Justice Department inspector general’s assessment, Puget Sound’s ferries were the nation’s No. 1 target for maritime terrorism.
This may well be a case of alert citizens spotting a very real threat.
But running a photograph of two men who may as easily be tourists from Texas as terrorists from the Mideast with a story that makes them out to be persons of interest in a terrorism investigation seems problematic, to say the least.
The P-I ran a story about the FBI’s alert, but did not run the photographs, because we didn’t have enough information to warrant it. I hope that today we are able to get more information on this story, if it exists, from the FBI that would give us a clearer idea of the background behind their request.
This explanation fails to cover the relevant facts as reported by its own paper. The photos did not come from secret file; they were taken by an employee on the ferry. The employee noticed odd behavior from the two, who asked unusual questions about the layout and workings of the ferries. Since ferries have been identified as a potential terrorist target, as the explanation states, he took the pictures and forwarded them to the FBI, who need to find out who and where these men are.
Did the P-I feel like helping out? No — they felt like making a rather silly point about “privacy”. The extent of their assistance is to post a number on their site for readers to call the FBI if they have any more information about the men the P-I refuse to show. Oh, and let’s not forget, a haiku contest:
As the story develops today, what concerns you most: The possible threat to security? The way the alert was released? Something completely different? Put it in a three-line, 5-7-5 syllable bit of pop haiku for today’s contest.
My favorite so far, by Dani B:
Don’t be proactive
More readers if ferry sinks
Post pictures after
Michelle Malkin, who worked for years as a journalist in Seattle, has a few more entries she likes. Bill Hobbs, posting at Newsbusters, has more:
If Managing Editor McCumber needed art to illustrate a story on the region’s ferry system, he could and likely would dispatch a Seattle P-I photographer to one of the ferries, and publish a shot of random ferry passengers on the deck of the boat. The paper might not even bother to identify the people in the photo.
Newspapers publish crowd shots taken in public all the time without identifying the people in the photo or asking if they mind having their photo published – or knowing if they are or are not involved in some sort of criminal activity.
McCumber’s excuse for not running the photos is … beyond weak. It is a figleaf for political correctness run amok, political correctness that may compromise the security of the people of the Seattle area that the Seattle Post-Intelligencer ostensibly exists to serve.
Michelle also posted the picture herself yesterday. In the interest of assisting the FBI in finding these men to either close the lead or broadening the investigation — and also in informing the Seattle citizenry — I’ll follow suit here:
The blogosphere — doing the job American media won’t do since 2001.
UPDATE: The P-I cancels the haiku contest, and acknowledges its bad taste in launching it. At least they admit that error, and rather graciously, too.
Identification:
closest to the camera:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spock
farthest from the camera:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Andreievich_Chekov
I’ll bet if the FBI approached the same paper and asked the editors to print pictures of persons suspected of bombing an abortion clinic they’d trip all over themselves to print those pictures.
Then they’d have editorials lecturing us about how important it is for everyone to cooperate with law enforcement in the investigation.
I’ll bet if the FBI approached the same paper and asked the editors to print pictures of persons suspected of bombing an abortion clinic they’d trip all over themselves to print those pictures.
Then they’d have editorials lecturing us about how important it is for everyone to cooperate with law enforcement in the investigation.
You disappoint me, Captain. I’ve been a long-time fan and I truly think you’re better than this.
Of course a writer needs to write what sells, and consider the target audience. But what shall it profit a Captain if he gain the whole blogosphere and lose his own soul in the process?
I urge you to remove this entry.
I’ll bet that if the FBI asked the editors to publish photos of two men suspected of involvement in a plot to bomb abortion clinics they’d trip all over themselves to publish those photos.
Then they’d lecture us about how every citizen has a responsibility to cooperate with the authorities.
filistro, what is your point? Remove news? Why?
I prefer my own haiku:
Seattle don’t call
us when your ferries sink, call
Seattle P.I.
Stupid is as stupid does. However, when hell breaks loose who’d they goona call for help? Why the good ‘ole US of A. I would’t mind places like Seattle, Boulder, San Francisco, if when the going got tough, they took care of their own business, just like they tell us they do daily, instead of looking to your and my tax dollars to get them out of the horror they have allowed to be inflicted on themselves.
This reminds me of another bright shining moment in journalistic “integrity” when I used to live in D.C. There were two girls at-large in the DC area preying upon the elderly. They would go to the door of the house claiming their car had broken down and they needed to use a phone. Once inside they would beat and rob the home owners. The local television and the Washington Post refused to broadcast or publish a physical desciption of the assailants, presumably because they were black. Heaven forbid we do anything to protect our most vulnerable citizens when there are politically correct sensibilities at stake.
A ferry is actually one of the best soft targets for an attack you can think of: A lot of people who can’t run anywhere, no security to speak off, easy access for 10 – 50 terrorists with all the “equipment” they need. I just hope, that big part of the “Seattle Time” editorial board would be on board at the same time.
Are not ferry employees trained to call the authorities to have suspicious individuals met on arrival to be interrogated? Those two fit the profile? Transportation employees have to be better trained to meet the threat. The MSM, Left or Right have their own agendas, and it ain’t about public service, it’s their bottom line, financially and ideological. Someone find out how many hours of anti-terror the ferry service gives its employees.
I like the new look around here.
Sitting on a couch in Minnesota, calling yourself “Captain” and spouting opinions on subjects about which you know nothing is detrimental to the program.
Wow. A chickenhawk argument about ferry boats. ::grin::
Do you see any mention of ferry security procedures in this post? No. That’s not the topic; the editorial decision of the P-I is. My post doesn’t even begin to discuss “maritime security”.
The ferry employee found the situation strange enough to take the picture and give it to the FBI. The FBI found the tip significant enough to investigate. They asked the P-I to publish the picture, and the P-I refused on the grounds of civil liberties and privacy (which you claim wasn’t the issue). I’m saying that their decision was foolish — which you acknowledge by saying the pictures were “out there everywhere”.
Maybe you should read for comprehension before commenting, eh?
I like the new look around here.
Sitting on a couch in Minnesota, calling yourself “Captain” and spouting opinions on subjects about which you know nothing is detrimental to the program.
Wow. A chickenhawk argument about ferry boats. ::grin::
Hey Dan, you’ve got to be completely shitting me.
I ride the Washington State Ferries frequently, and your comment “we take the safety and security very seriously.” is quite amusing.
Yes, I see the dogs. Yes, I see the Washington State Patrolman on the ferry. But I also see how many commercial vehichles are getting on – and the best search of one I’ve seen would be called ‘a cursory search.’
Having a patrolman walk the length of the deck _once_, then spending the rest of the trip sitting on his ass is clearly useful. The flashlights into the mini Coopers – good use of resources.
In fact, the _telling_ thing about this is that these two have been seen multiple times scouting non-passenger areas. And They weren’t caught on the ferry by, say, a vaunted ‘deck officer’. “Oh, well, we took a picture, that’ll have to do.”
Sorry. I thought my first post didn’t go through, possibly because another Sue was here, so I changed my name a little and posted again. I’ll be more patient in the future.
They may be innocent, but they don’t look like tourists from Texas to me. Tehran, maybe.
This is another example the failings of the MSM, and unfortunately it’s the norm, not the exception.
wouldn’t run the pic
A tragedy, the sinking
Never caught the perp
Well, let me be the first one on the new CQ
website to blame the Jews for all the worlds problems.
Just wanted to make the lefty trolls feel at home in the new digs.
People here have no problem with screwing up peoples lives for any reason. This happened recently with the two men who were arrested for having fireworks in their car, which everyone here was convinced were really pipe bombs that were going to be used to break their Muslim buddys out of the nearby Navy base in order to plan the next 9/11. It looks like maybe that is not the case:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017825.php#comments
Oops. When the two are released, they’ll just tell the two men to carry on with their lives like nothing happened. But it’s not so easy for people in their situation. Maybe the Seattle PI does not want to be a part of your hysteria.
My sister in law lives on Bainbridge Island which is a 30 minute ferry ride from Seattle. When I was there last summer, the Coast Guard would “buzz” the ferries in their speedboats as a show of force and for training. What was amazing was that the locals were quite angry about this and wanted the Coast Guard to stop. I was amazed by the anti Coast Guard sentiment and how the Seattle PI would publish letters to the editor 100% opposed to the Coast Guard presence completely oblivious to a potential terrorist threat. In their bizzaro world, 9/11 never happened.
“Maybe you should read for comprehension before commenting, eh?”
OUCH!! Looks like “Dan the Man” got the Skipper’s hackles up…not a mean feet considering how gracious and generous our host is…
Dan: After working on your reading comprehension lighten up a little. CE did nothing to compromise any security programs you may be working.
Just like you don’t have to be poked in they eye with a stick to know it would hurt…you don’t have to get seasick on a ferry to know something about ferry OPSEC…
“who asked unusual questions about the layout and workings of the ferries”
They probably asked where the bathroom is.
The previous poster was right about “operation rescue” terrorists…or “Michigan Militia” terrorists. No problem with putting their mug shots “above the fold”. Of course the dimwits and cowards (like the shyster) will be the first ones saying “where were the police?” “What did Bush know and when did he know it…?”. Before the rust bucket could even sink to the bottom of the Sound.
In fact, the Shyster is all froggy from his blazing (and brilliant) conspiracy posts…he’s probably already doing the dry runs for his ferry sinking conspiracy yarn. Yawn.
“They probably asked where the bathroom is.”
The state of today’s left, summed up in one neat little sentence. I see the total surrender doesn’t stop in Iraq.
P.I. instead show
Evil Rovian plot to
Steal Seattle oil.
A haiku in honor of Captain “Ferry Chickenhawk” Ed
Here’s my entry;
The PI cowers
Thinks poetry is answer
Will blame Bush after
Captain,
The “crows nest” area in your new look needs to suppress photos, or needs a style to restrict the size of the displayed photo to the width of the “crows nest” div. I’ve got the “two suspects” photo full size on my page — twice. In addition, the “crows nest” probably should display just the first sentence or so of your post. Having the entire post running down the side of the page is duplication of page resources.
Also, when you put an unordered list into the crows nest, the bullets fall outside the colored box (which indicates a bounding box issue in your CSS). I’m using Firefox, so if your web people were using IE [Firefox and IE implement the CSS1 bounding box model differently with respect to defaults] they need to make the page browser agnostic by pinning down more of the bounding box details.
And I miss the little panel recording recent posters (so I could know what to go read, since some of your contributors are interesting).
Sorry for posting this here — you can remove it since it isn’t entirely germaine to the discussion at hand…
First, the media wanted to know why the ‘dots’ were not connected. Now we have dots. But, never mind, we don’t want any connecting. This after 9/11.
I guess some think there is no public service component to the print media. (Actually, too much is a disservice.) Perhaps, PI believes, because their readership is so low, the likelihood of it providing assistance was also low. Plus, PI surely would not want to offend any terrorist-sympathizers.
Unclsmrgol,
No, it’s fine that you posted this here; I didn’t have a thread anywhere else for it at the time.
The Crow’s Nest is for something else — the designers are working on that part of the site right now. This new design will be in flux for a little while.
I think Capt Ed should have court on deck and Dan should be tried for failure to protect the ship’s security!
The Captain’s authority shall never be questioned!
Captain,
The thread you do have for posting stuff about the new look has a screwed up comment box — all fields when clicked for focus redirect to feedburner.com’s “emailflare” so I can e-mail the link (which is not what I want to do).
All in all, really minor problems for your shakedown cruise.
Suspicious Muslims
Make ’em wear yellow armbands
Easier to watch
Its easy to see why the Seaatle PI did not publish the photos. Its readers are probably 90% hard core leftists and they would be horrified by any potential racial profiling so its a wise business decision. In their world, and Daves, 9/11 was really a evil Bush plot to expand American empire and steal the worlds oil.
Dave is a self admitted 9/11 Truther so he is not to be taken seriously, just mocked and ridiculed. He will soon be gone since the government is rounding up the Truthers and sending them to internment camps.
I really wish that liberals would start condeming Islamic terrorists as much as they do Republicans. I guess its that old the enemy of my enemy is my friend type of mentality.
Seattle P-I
Now Unintelligencer
Seattle P-U
Guess that makes me a poet.
Blaise:
I saw your poem on the PI website as well. You seem to be awefully proud of it.
It’s not that funny.
P C must come first
To bad we cant show you pics
Good luck on the boat
Seattle hippies
Think that they walk on water
We may soon find out
Dave, when you gonna grow out of diapers?
“People here have no problem with screwing up peoples lives for any reason.” -Dave
Oh, I don’t know, maybe they’re trying to keep some bad folks from screwing up our lives…like the lives that got just a bit screwed up 6 years ago…
awright, i can’t resist and bad haiku isn’t too different from my normal attention defecit posting style.
Haiku dreamers feel
better sorry than safe
and_W.O.T._is_a_BIG_FAT_LIE_masterminded_by_that_evil_genius_Rove and_carried_out_by_the_bushHalliburton_industrial_military_complex to_ oppress_people_of_color_and_steal_all_the_oil_out_from_everywhere!
Seattle P-I
Now Unintelligencer
Seattle P-U
Guess I’m a poet now, huh?
Seattle P-I
Now Unintelligencer
Seattle P-U
Guess I’m a poet now, huh?
Dave, these men are not just some guys who happened to be photographed ion a ferry, they are wanted for questioning by the FBI because of their behavior and the PI SHOULD have released their photograph as it was requested by the FBI to help them conduct an investigation. The FBI has the obligation to question people based on public reports of possible dangerous behavior. This isn’t profiling, it’s a common sense response to the known danger of terrorism.
People need to cooperate in investigations, especially if those investigations helps clear someone of suspicion as could very well happen in this case. It’s better for the FBI and other public safety officials question a million people and be wrong a million times than it is to not investigative one or two people and miss something that can get others killed. Also, you have no right to avoid questioning by police and other public safety officials. The PI has no right to deny the FBI in assisting them in finding people the FBI has a obligation to interview. This is PC’ism run amok.
I thank them for their apology and retraction, however, I would urge the residents of the area to make a more significant statement by canceling subscriptions or advertising and letting them know the reason. Americans have to send a message to the MSM that we will expect responsibility, and we will not excuse careless disregard for our law enforcement based on their liberal opinion of ….
Wait for it…
The wrongful war and the bigoted opinion of George Bush and his Government Thugs.
And really, isn’t this what they were saying? Isn’t this what TNR was saying? And are we going to just say — it’s okay because you now say you’re sorry (although TNR has not.)
My guess is they reacted because their readers are also reading BLOGS and a large enough number of readers simply called and said, “you’re fired. I’ve had enough.”
It’s hard to hold MSM accountable, but the easiest of all of these media to hold accountable would be the Newspapers as they rely on subscriptions for a portion of their revenue (and in fact, ultimately, all of their revenue.)
This is their Haiku:
War in Iraq
Made us hate our America
Bush must pay
Here’s mine:
Wanted by FBI
My duty is to help
Cancel my subscription.
Hey Dave: Shouldn’t that be “awfully”?
Dave says:
People here have no problem with screwing up peoples lives for any reason. This happened recently with the two men who were arrested for having fireworks in their car, which everyone here was convinced were really pipe bombs that were going to be used to break their Muslim buddys out of the nearby Navy base in order to plan the next 9/11. It looks like maybe that is not the case:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017825.php#comments
Oops. When the two are released, they’ll just tell the two men to carry on with their lives like nothing happened. But it’s not so easy for people in their situation. Maybe the Seattle PI does not want to be a part of your hysteria.
Eric Says:
Don’t get mad at us. Get mad at the 19 people who flew jets into the WTC. How about getting mad at the two jerks in the photo who are, in my opinion, pulling another flying Imam stunt.
Eric, their circulation is already in the ‘nowhere to go but up’ category. They’re one of the two Seattle metro area dailies. City:600,000ish, Metro area: 3.3 million.
Circulation 128k daily.
There are papers for individual suburbs (focusing on purely local issues) that approach half the PI’s circulation.
Dave says:
People here have no problem with screwing up peoples lives for any reason. This happened recently with the two men who were arrested for having fireworks in their car, which everyone here was convinced were really pipe bombs that were going to be used to break their Muslim buddys out of the nearby Navy base in order to plan the next 9/11. It looks like maybe that is not the case:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017825.php#comments
Oops. When the two are released, they’ll just tell the two men to carry on with their lives like nothing happened. But it’s not so easy for people in their situation. Maybe the Seattle PI does not want to be a part of your hysteria.
Eric Says:
Don’t get mad at us. Get mad at the 19 people who flew jets into the WTC. How about getting mad at the two jerks in the photo who are, in my opinion, pulling another flying Imam stunt.
Hm.
Judging by the photo, them boys COULD be tourists from Texas.
Mid-east Texas, if you know what I mean and I think you do…
FBI Seeks Information on Men Who Behaved Suspiciously on Seattle Ferries
Their odd behavior was noted by several people during a period spanning several weeks:
FBI agents in Seattle have asked the public to help identify two men spotted behaving in an “unusual” manner during several trips on the nation’s …
Ray:
“… the PI SHOULD have released their photograph…”
I don’t think they should have, even if you put it in caps. I don’t think they are required to by law either, because if they were I believe this would have been mentioned in the right wing blogs.
“The FBI has the obligation to question people based on public reports of possible dangerous behavior.”
Fair enough.
“This isn’t profiling…”
Of course it is.
“People need to cooperate in investigations…”
No they don’t. Neither do newspapers.
“ It’s better for the FBI and other public safety officials question a million people and be wrong a million times than it is to not investigative one or two people and miss something that can get others killed.”
I guess you don’t mind if the FBI comes over tonight to start questioning you about your activities, phone calls, credit card purchases, etc. I would mind.
“Also, you have no right to avoid questioning by police and other public safety officials.”
Of course you do. If you are not being charged with a crime, you do not have to say a word to police. If police are searching bags on the subway, you have the right to refuse the search and leave. If the police have probable cause that you may be about to commit a crime, they can question you. You still don’t have to answer, but you’ll get arrested. Having a third party say that someone looks suspicious is not probable cause. Even if a cop sees someone himself that he thinks “looks suspicious”, this is not probable cause. If they find these guys, they don’t have to say a word. Looking suspicious (or looking Midlle Eastern) is not a crime.
“The PI has no right to deny the FBI in assisting them in finding people the FBI has a obligation to interview.”
I assume the PI is a private company. A private company, nor a private individual, has any obligation to assist the police with anything. If they do, can they come to your house right now and demand that you help them look for these two guys? I don’t think so.
Eric:
“Don’t get mad at us. Get mad at the 19 people who flew jets into the WTC.”
So because the 19 people were Muslim, the US has the eternal right to fuck up the lives of all Muslims for all of eternity, regardless if they are doing anything wrong or not. I assume you are a white American male, because only a white American male would make such an asinine statement. So does Timothy McVeigh give the US the right to arrest you for no reason, put you in jail for a few weeks, possibly making you lose your job, and generally screw up your life? Would you enjoy that?
Dave,
Geez, stick to the topic.
These guys are wanted by the FBI. It would be a useful public service for the press to publish their pictures.
I don’t know why you keep getting hysterical about wrecking lives of innocent people.
Terrorism’s fake
Nothing bad can happen here
‘Cause we recycle
Whoever these jocular fellows are, I’m sure what they had in mind is closer to the Flying Imams’ agit than to the mass murder of 9/11.
“So because the 19 people were Muslim, the US has the eternal right to fuck up the lives of all Muslims for all of eternity” – Dave
Yes, please enlighten us to this huge muslim backlash since 9-11. Here in these United States, heck, even across the globe, how many mosques burned to the ground, how many muslims killed, or beaten, or even threatened?
That’s a crock of crap, Dave, and a hearty mixture of muslim and leftist propaganda.
Do you work for CAIR?
And this isn’t profiling. Who said anything about these fellows’ race, religion, etc?
They are simply pictures of two men being sought for their suspicious behavior.
Or is ‘suspicious behavior’ now classified as one of the untouchable ‘profiling’ categories?
“I assume you are a white American male, because only a white American male would make such an asinine statement.” – Dave
My, my, my…is that ‘profiling’ white males?
Or just plain old bigotry?
Cap’n Ed: The blogosphere — doing the job American media won’t do since 2001.
A friend of mine told me about his elementary school experiences in Poland in the ’70’s. The children were told that they might, on occasion, see foreigners taking pictures of bridges or otherwise acting suspiciously. In such cases, the children were told to follow the foreigners and inform authorities.
Homeland Security & the FBI could learn from that security-conscious example, eh?
Reagan and Bush:
Godless Communists
Sent to history’s ash-heap
Better dead than red
After 9-1-1
Appeasement or victory
Better red than dead
Reagan and Bush:
Godless Communists
Sent to history’s ash-heap
Better dead than red
After 9-1-1
Appeasement or victory
Better red than dead
Just a few hours after reading this post, I spoke with another mariner who had been aboard a Washington State Ferry about two weeks ago.
It seems crew members on at least three ferries had observed passengers taking pictures and measuring dimensions of the ferries and docks, and making notes.
They reported their observations to superiors, and one crew member had the presence of mind to get a cell phone picture of the two men he saw.
Uncle Jefe:
“…even across the globe, how many mosques burned to the ground…”
I did a quick search. The most recent was last week:
“Bay Area Muslims on Wednesday announced a reward worth up to $10,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person or persons that set fire to an Antioch mosque.”
AP, August 16, 2007
“A weekend blaze that destroyed the Islamic Center of Savannah was arson, Savannah fire investigators said.”
AP, Aug. 26, 2003
“The al-Baqi Islamic Center and mosque [in Springfield MA] was severely damaged by fire Dec. 8. Seven youths have been charged with arson.”
UPI, Jan. 3, 2005
“Someone deliberately set fire Thursday morning to the Islamic Education Center of Tampa, a mosque tucked into a neighborhood of tidy suburban homes in Town ‘N Country, according to Hillsborough Fire Rescue and the FBI.”
St. Petersburg Times, April 13, 2007
“Fire at Texas Mosque ‘Intentionally Set’, Says CAIR…The fire at Masjid Al-Muhaiman in Houston, Texas, broke out Monday night and caused an estimated $50,000 damage.”
US Newswire, Feb 25, 2004
“Fire that gutted California mosque fire being investigated as possible arson or hate crime”
AP June 4, 2005
“Police arrest teen over arson at mosque in Germany”
Deutsche Presse-Agentur, Dec. 3, 2004
“Fire damaged a mosque and destroyed a Muslim prayer hall before dawn Friday in southeastern France, and police suspected arson in both. Fire crews extinguished the fire at the mosque in Annecy before it engulfed the entire building. The prayer hall in the Annecy suburb of Seynod was destroyed in the other fire.”
AP, March 25, 2004
“A mosque in southeastern Netherlands was destroyed by fire Saturday in what appeared to be the latest suspected attack against an Islamic site since the killing of a Dutch filmmaker critical of Islamic fundamentalism.”
AP, Nov. 13, 2004
“A fire that burned an annex to a mosque in southern Sweden in April was the work of arsonists, police said Tuesday after a two-month investigation.”
AP, June 24, 2003
“A mosque was gutted by an arson attack in the Dutch port city of Rotterdam in the early hours of Wednesday morning.”
UPI, June 15, 2005
In one attack overnight molotov cocktails were thrown at a mosque in suburban Brisbane. Police said no-one was injured in the petrol bombing of the Islamic Mosque at Holland Park. Investigations are also underway into an attempted petrol bomb attack on an Islamic centre on the Gold Coast. A fence surrounding this property was spray painted with the racist message: ‘You will die … We will kill you all … We will kill you … Blood will be shed … We will kill all Arabs … Scum will die…’ A schoolbus packed with Muslim children was stoned yesterday in Brisbane in one of the worst of the revenge attacks.”
AP, June 26, 2004
Maybe you have not heard about these incidents. They are not covered much in the papers. Usually only in wire reports that people never read. As for physical attacks, there are simply far too many to list. I have other things to do.
Uncle Jefe:
Regarding my last post. If a half dozen churches were the target of Muslim arsonists, do you think you would have heard about. I believe so.
“My, my, my…is that ‘profiling’ white males?”
My “profiling” is connected to power relationships, and not race or religion. The statement I directed my response to is a statement that can only be made by someone in power. In the US, that is white males. I can easily picture a situation where Muslims are in power and exploiting and killing white males and, if the white males decided to fight back, the Muslims in power would get very upset and use the incident as an excuse to exploit and subjugate them even further. So my statement relates to power relationships, not to race or religion. That said, there are various other historical reasons for white American males being particularly cruel when in power.
Nice try, Dave.
Many you’ve listed have nothing to do with hate against muslims, but are simply arson (as the most recent one in Antioch California has been described by police and fire depts). And your “if a half dozen churches were the target of muslim arsonists” bit…besides again falsely claiming they were hate crimes, you act as if a half dozen arson fires over the course of 3 years across the globe is some kind of muslim backlash. In addition, you claim that it doesn’t make the news. Wrong again. Didn’t you find the reporting of them in your frantic google search to try and justify your bullshit claim? It just isn’t news that across the globe a half dozen mosques were burned in arson fires over the course of 3 years.
How many christian churches are also arson targets? Just as many, if not more. In the meantime, you may also want to rethink the ones where “CAIR says” it was intentionally set. Then again, hearing where you’re coming from, their word is good enough for you.
As for the ‘white male’ slur being about ‘power relationships’ (oh Lord, it’s all about “THE MAN”), yeah, I can easily picture a situation where muslims are in power and exploiting and killing white males…it happened in Spain for 700 years, for example…
White American males…
The ones who gave the world a map to freedom via the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution…
The ones who gave their lives to abolish slavery in the Civil War…
The ones who, throughout the last century, gave their lives to free millions of people of color throughout the world from the forces of fascism and communism…
The ones who, along with their Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc etc brothers and sisters are all over the globe currently freeing muslims, christians, atheists, etc, from islamic terror…
I hope you’re not an American, Dave.
You aren’t worthy of the sacrifices these white American men made on our behalf, nor of the sacrifices currently being made by the men and women of our Armed Forces.
Oh my GOD!!!! Yesterday morning they found a suspicious package on Seattle’s largest ferry! The boat was delayed an hour so a bomb detective could come and inspect the device! Maybe these two scary Muslim’s left it there! I guess I was wrong!
Never mind. It was a bong….
“Someone found a bong,” said David Gomez, FBI assistant special agent in charge.
The object”…turned out to be a hollowed-out tube made of duct tape and smelling of marijuana, a State Patrol spokesman said. The tube, described as about the size of a paper towel roll, was “made out of pure duct tape” and contained several thin wood sticks, State Patrol Sgt. Craig H. Johnson said. The tube “had an odor of marijuana, according to the bomb technician,” Johnson said, adding, “How or why you would smoke marijuana with duct tape, I don’t know…The suspicious item on the boat necessitated the response,” Johnson said. “A bomb detective responded and determined it was non-explosive.”
This hysteria is hilarious. In a normal nation, if somebody finds a tube of duct tape that smells like pot, they throw it away. In the US, it’s a major incident.
Uncle Jeffe:
“…are simply arson….”
Yes, I am sure it was random arson. Nice defense mechanism.
“..you claim that it doesn’t make the news. Wrong again. Didn’t you find the reporting of them in your frantic google search…”
I found the reports on a Lexis Nexis search of the newswires. Normally people don’t read the newswires, idiot. These incidents are not reported in major newspapers.
“It just isn’t news that across the globe a half dozen mosques were burned in arson fires over the course of 3 years.”
Across the globe, I found 13. That was in 20 minutes. I am sure there are more. If they were churches, it would be big news.
“How many christian churches are also arson targets? Just as many, if not more.”
Well that’s proof. SHOW ME.
Idiot?
Talk about projection…
Google ‘church fires’.
You’ll get over 2 million results.
Yes, simply arson on the mosques, a fact, not a defense mechanism. Your mixing hate crimes with arson fires to inflate your numbers tells a lot about you.
In the meantime, your ‘hysteria’ claim…
It’s not hysteria. It’s the world we live in. Due to islamic terrorism, people in Israel, Indonesia, Thailand, Africa, Europe and the US have to be on their guard every day. Even with vigilance, the terrorists will contine to try and kill people. Those of us who don’t live in a fantasy world are doing our best to stay alive. Folks like you didn’t have their eyes opened on 9-11, and apparently never will. Your kind will always look for a reason to blame the US, blame Bush, blame Mommy and Daddy…in other words, you attack those who you know won’t fight back.
You are cowards who will never face the real enemy, because that means you put something on the line, like your life, your safety.
It’s easier to stand on a street corner with signs saying ‘9-11 was an inside job’ and ‘no blood for oil’, screaming at the top of your lungs, in rage. Aren’t you empowered? Aren’t you speaking truth to power?
Tough guy.
Eric:
“Don’t get mad at us. Get mad at the 19 people who flew jets into the WTC.”
Dave responds:
So because the 19 people were Muslim, the US has the eternal right to fuck up the lives of all Muslims for all of eternity, regardless if they are doing anything wrong or not. I assume you are a white American male, because only a white American male would make such an asinine statement. So does Timothy McVeigh give the US the right to arrest you for no reason, put you in jail for a few weeks, possibly making you lose your job, and generally screw up your life? Would you enjoy that?
Eric Responds:
You’re full of crap. I know a lot of Muslims — they are not facing any form of persocution in this country. The CFO of my company is muslim (from Pakistan)and he feels the same way I do. This had nothing to do with them being Muslim — it had to do with the questions they were asking and their behavior.
I’ll say it again — there are no muslims being persocuted in this country.
By the way – the kids had a trunk full of explosives — not fireworks. The fireworks line was used by their family here in Tampa. They are appearing in court on charges of possesing explosives. The worst lawyer in the world would have had them released by now if it were fireworks.
Stop kidding yourself.
By the way Dave,
You’re also classicly racist. Read your own post. You’re racist.
Dave says:
Uncle Jef,
“Someone deliberately set fire Thursday morning to the Islamic Education Center of Tampa, a mosque tucked into a neighborhood of tidy suburban homes in Town ‘N Country, according to Hillsborough Fire Rescue and the FBI.”
St. Petersburg Times, April 13, 2007
Eric says:
I remember this. They caught the two teenage children who did it. Guess what. Members of the mosque. Can’t find the story, but I remember.
Dave,
Anyone can be picked up for questioning by the FBI and other public safety officers, like the police, and there’s nothing legally you can do to prevent it. The police, for example, can hold you for up to 48 hours without charging you with a crime. All they need is reasonable suspicion, and a citizen report of suspicion activity is enough to hold you for questioning. That’s been true for decades. You don’t have to answer their questions, but you can be held and questioned.
Just because you deny that the FBI an/or the police can question you, it doesn’t mean that they won’t or that they don’t have the legal authority to do so. They do have the authority to question people for their suspicious behavior. If the FBI wants to question me, there’s NOTHING I can do to prevent them from picking me up and holding me me for questioning, but I do not have to answer their questions.
The same is true of these two men, they can be held for questioning by the FBI and there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent that. That being said, they don’t have to answer the questions, but they must make themselves available to questioning if the FBI requires it and the men are aware of that request. To do otherwise is called obstruction of justice and that’s a felony punishable for up to 5 years in prison. You may not like it, but there it is.
BTW It isn’t racial profiling when the FBI responds to a citizen’s report of suspicious activity. It’s only profiling if the FBI itself instigates the investigation based on some demographic. Since it was a ferry employee who reported the suspicious activity of theres two men to the FBI, you would have to claim that the employee was profiling the men, and so far you haven’t done that. Are you claiming that the ferry employee is guilty of racial profiling?
“Oh my GOD!!!! Yesterday morning they found a suspicious package on Seattle’s largest ferry! The boat was delayed an hour so a bomb detective could come and inspect the device! Maybe these two scary Muslim’s left it there! I guess I was wrong!
Never mind. It was a bong….”
Do you believe that there is no threat from explosive devices or that each device looks like a cartoon bomb with a burning fuse sticking out of the top? Wake up! People have been been killing others with explosive devices for generations and most devices are designed to look harmless as the bomb maker wants to hurt and kill people, not just scare them. You can’t do that if people recognized an explosive device for what it is.
There’s a reason why suspicious items are treated as dangerous. There’ far to many examples of people not treating a device as dangerous which lead to deaths and injuries. Remember the backpack at the Summer Olympics in Atlanta that blew up? People died in that explosion, and that looked like a harmless backpack that someone just dropped on the ground! Remember, the Unibomber? In several cases, people died because they ignored a suspicious package they received from him. The brown paper wrapping that contained the bomb was covered in a dark oily material, something that we now recognized as an indication of an explosive device. The people didn’t recognize this for what it was and the devices exploded when the packages were opened. In another attack by the Unibomber, he left a device in a brown paper bag that blew up when someone picked it up. That man was seriously hurt. These are all examples of why a suspicious package needs to be investigated and treated as potentially deadly, it’s a preventive measure to ensure people don’t get hurt.
You better be damn glad that the authorities treat suspicious items as dangerous. How would you feel if they didn’t and someone you know was hurt or killed by a harmless looking bomb? That’s happen far to many times already.
Eric:
“I remember this. They caught the two teenage children who did it. Guess what. Members of the mosque.”
You’re full of shit. A Lexis Nexis search says nothing about this. As of July 9, the arsonist had not been found, and the award was still being offered. Not a word since. But I guess I’ll have to trust your memory.
“By the way – the kids had a trunk full of explosives — not fireworks.”
You better tell your friends at Jihadwatch that they’re appeasers. They don’t seem to agree with you.
Ray:
I don’t disagree with anything you said (in your first post). I don’t think I wrote anything that contradicted what you said either.
“Are you claiming that the ferry employee is guilty of racial profiling?”
Yes. I live in Boston and take a ferry often. If I ever find out what these guys actually did or said, I’ll go on the ferry and do the exact same thing, the exact same number of times. How much do you want to bet the that nobody cares?
“Wake up!…most devices are designed to look harmless…”
This “device” was a tube made entirely out of duct tape. Is that scary to you? Are you afraid of baby ducks as well? Be my guest. Be afraid of whatever you want.
Ray:
Statistics say its more likely to die from peanuts than from a terrorist attack. Maybe you should be afraid of Snickers bars as well.
For Dan Towhig, “deckhand” on Seattle ferries:
Please let us know which route and shift you work.
As for me, I will happily rearrange my schedule so I can ride a Seattle ferry where the crew takes safety of its customers more seriously than you seem to.
If the the civil rights of passengers on your watch who are acting suspiciously are important to you, go to law school. In the meantime, get off my boat. You are are detrimental to my program.
Eric:
“there are no muslims being persocuted in this country”
This is obviously untrue, as I could bring up countless examples that say otherwise. That being said, I just had a conversation with my Iranian coworker, and I asked about her and her families experience living in the US. She says that she has had very little problems, and believes Americans are very accepting. I was surprised to hear that. She said in Iran, on the other hand, there is a lot of prejudice against Afghanis, for example. Iranian Jews, because they are Iranian, are treated well. So although I read many stories about Middle Easterners being beaten, harrassed, etc., I guess I’ll admit that the majority of Americans are probably pretty tolerant.
Ray:
“looked like a harmless backpack”
Are you afraid of backpacks, too? If I were to disguise a bomb, I would not make it look like a roll of duct tape. Instead, I might stuff it into a teddy bear. Watch out for teddy bears!
Is al-Qaeda scoping out Seattle?
ABC News reports on suspicious activity on several Seattle ferries, all by the same two men: There have been a number of suspicious incidents this summer aboard Washington state ferries, which prompted the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the
You are a bomb, Dave, but just a dud.
Yes, ‘countless’ numbers of muslims are being ‘persecuted’ in the USA.
But wait, where are all of these persecuted folks??
Oh yeah, your answer will be ‘the media doesn’t cover it’ or some other BS excuse.
Do you know why?
It’s because muslim persecution and backlash exists only in your muddled mind.
Just like a conspiracy by Bushcheneyhalliburton on 9-11 exists only in your mind (and in the diseased minds of your fellow travellers).
You are sick and need help.
You still have time to change.
Your narcissism will ensure that you never get the help you need.
Enjoy your tormented existence.
It is all your own doing.