I’m going to leave this as more or less an open thread for those who just watched The 9/11 Conspiracies: Fact Or Fiction? on The History Channel. Having read the Popular Mechanics book that debunks all of the pseudoscience offered by the Truthers, most of the rebuttals were both familiar and far too short in this program. I’m more interested in what CQ readers thought of the conspiracy theorists themselves.
The silliest and yet most revealing moment? That came near the end, when talk-radio host Alex Jones discussed his place in history (note: site may not be safe for your intellect). He told the History Channel that Galileo got persecuted when he told people that the Earth was round instead of flat. “I’m telling people the world is round!” he exclaimed.
Unfortunately, Galileo got persecuted for claiming that the Earth moved around the sun, not that the Earth was round. Learned people had accepted that the round Earth since the Greeks, and they had actually calculated the circumference with surprising accuracy. Ptolemy even came up with the system of longitude and latitude before Christ was born. However hilarious Jones’ assertion may be, it’s a great example of their scholarship.
What were your biggest laugh lines?
UPDATE: Clunkety-clunk Lady came in a close second in our household ….
110 thoughts on “What Was The Silliest Moment Of The 9/11 Truther Expose On History Channel?”
Comments are closed.
Easily the clunkity, clunk clunk woman.
With the voice changing technology people a very close second.
Honestly, are they getting their science lessons from bad sci fi movies?
I liked the guy complaining that there weren’t any holes in the Pentagon where the engines would have been on the wings of the plane so it must have been a missile. I was thinking of the many cartoons I watched as a kid showing a man-shaped hole through a building or fence when, sure enough, the Popular Mechanics guy used the same image to illustrate how silly the Truther was.
To me it was at the end where Avery Dillon is saying that they’re going to have to revise for the third edition – leaving out the cell phone calls and the two towers and concentrating on tower seven. He apparently doesn’t realize that the ground is being cut out from under him evan as he speaks.
I didn’t get to see that. But I did hear one of the local university radio stations play an audio recording made before one of the towers fell. It was a long recording, maybe a couple minutes and mostly wind noise and popping sounds in the microphone that the Truther radio host claimed was evidence of demolition charges going off. She never bothered to mention what gear the recording was made with, what kind of microphone, whether it had a windscreen thingy and if so what kind. You know, those unimportant little details they tend to leave out.
As much as I enjoy your opinions, this post loses points by quoting Wikipedia to support your arguments. As many have learned recently, Wikipedia can be edited by *anyone*, left, right and everything in between.
Don’t do what the MSM does, i.e. trusting the easiest source for support of their reporting.
You live in a free country. So, when it comes to ideas, no matter how crazy, if you go looking for it, you won’t come up empty-handed. The empty-headed folks deliver will all the rest.
On the other hand, that mainstream thinks it needs this, is quite telling. Given how I think the MSM, and the elites, have all been hooked on “affirmative action” it’s no surprise to me that science and engineering took a back seat. And, this makes it necessary to “debunk” the Rosie O’Donnell’s, who are without credentials. But they’ve got microphones.
She doesn’t think fire can melt steel. And, she’s had a TV show! I’m not sure. That may be gone, now. I don’t watch TV, anymore. And, for all I know, Roseanne Barr (or Arnold), or whatever, also no longer has a TV show.
Doesn’t mean you can’t get “comments” from the “unscientific crowd.”
Now, what frosts my ass, however, is that there’s an outdoor mosque going up, in the field where Flight #73 crashed. The sucker faces mecca. And, the crescent will be filled in with red trees. While the bureacrats are confused that people have taken umbrage.
Umbrage is all we can take. Because nothing diverts this outdoor mosque from being built. It will also include the names of the dead terrorists.
The government does “stuff” because it can.
And, the only reason we have nincompoops, without scientific knowledge, spouting off, is that nobody stopped algore. (Who got a D in science, by the way), from claiming he’s invented the Internet; AND the ice-caps are melting!
Will it get better?
Well, for the longest time, “going to school” was an option. Heck, how many months did Lincoln get in a classroom setting?
You once had to be rich, to avoid work which involved using your hands, and the sweat of your brow. You’d think that having fewer learned professionals, back then, would have kept Americans uncurious. (incurious?)
Turns out our gift, this time around, is the Internet.
Where, when fools tell ya 9/11 was an “insider job,” you already know that the people who spout this crap aren’t just Troofers, they’ll BushHitlerHaliburnton haters, as well.
And, I’m gonna miss this stuff when Bush leaves office.
From:
Everyone was screaming, crying, running. It’s like a war zone
by Julian Borger in Washington, Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles, Charlie Porter in New York and Stuart Millar
Wednesday September 12, 2001
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,550486,00.html
excerpt:
It’s a miracle more people weren’t killed.
It’s a miracle that the Hudson didn’t break into the disaster site where the Twin Towers once stood.
And, it’s probably the last TV I can remember watching. Getting a call from my son, to turn on the television. Which I did. Before the second plane hit.
A day or so later, I saw Bill Clinton, doing his “bitten lower lip routine,” and I noticed he didn’t get any traction.
9/11 remains a demarcation point.
So basically these guys would have to know ahead of time that people would photograph the two hits on the WTC so they had to use planes but miraculously knew there wouldn’t be any good footage so they could use missiles. Wow, wonder what the probabilities on that one must be.
I didn’t watch it. I value my health too much to allow these moonbat crazy (expletive deleted) to preach their bizarre, intellectually bankrupt conspiracy theories in my living room. There is a companion book which I leafed through. It might have been subtitled ‘Debunking the Popular Mechanics Report’. No surprises and no connection to reality.
I can not politely express my anger and disbelief at these people.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many people with such severe cases of denial and cognitive dissonance in a span of just two hours.
Just a note- while Galileo probably was persecuted for the whole earth/sun thing, that was fairly well accepted by natural philosophers of his time (Copernicus was considerably earlier). Another possible reason that has come up in recent scholarship is his assessment of Jupiter’s moons through the telescope. He positied that since they seemed to act like the earth they must in turn be like the earth. This in turn would break the Aristotelian concepts of Substance and Accident and therefore the doctrine of Transsubstantiation (in which the accident, that is the physical properties of blood and wine remain, yet the intrinsic substance changes to blood and body of Christ).
Galileo got persecuted for claiming that the Earth moved around the sun, not that the Earth was round.
The Galileo case is quite a bit more complicated than that. A heliocentric-system, as earlier put forth by Copernicus, was accepted as a possible scientific hypothesis at the highest levels of the Church, but it appears that Galileo was a bit over-zealous in promoting the concept as definitive truth (even though it actually was not scientifically proved until 1838), and he even went so far as to depart from science and start getting into theology and scriptural interpretation, which is when he really started getting into trouble. It is true that the Galileo case was not properly handled, but it is also true that the Church was not the backward-flat-earther crowd, as it has been falsely portrayed.
The clunkety-cluck lady was the funniest. I especially liked when she said talked to a “Major Republican” who said “clunkety-clunk” 110 times. It took 3 minutes! Well, that settles it! Google it, people!
I was disappointed they didn’t spend any time on the Flight 93-in-Cleveland conspiracy.
Paulbots ignored the web tonight for the same timeframe , need I say more.
I didn’t watch much of it, but I tuned in and stayed for a few seconds because I was struck by one milk-white old guy with the most spectacular double chin I’ve even seen. The caption said he was from “9/11 Scholars for Truth.”
Instead of listening to his mumbling drivel, I examined his double chin. It was like a wrinkled linen curtain under his mouth that reached almost to his chest and rippled gently as he spoke, like the mainsail on a pirate ship.
I imagined him swimming underwater, feeding on krill like a blue whale, his double chin inflating into this massive pouch, his tongue squeezing the water past his baleen.
When he was done talking, there was some young guy who looked like a squid, with huge eyes and a smooth, elongated head.
Is it just me, or do all truthers resemble marine life? Were there any who looked like seals, sharks, walruses, or jellyfish?
Nearly every troother in the episode I observed made me upset. I noticed that they at least had one guy who worked on a construction site. Yipeee. No real engineers or anything. They all run together in a streaming blur of smug idiocracy, so I can’t really point out any particular idiot, although the whiny click clack chick, yeah, she should work for Under Armor’s cilck clack campaign.
I liked the one structural expert pointing out that, you know, buildings falling down, what do you expect them to look like? Also, the demolition guy pointing out, how did the Man know to rig the explosives at the exact point the planes would hit?
The only people wacker than the troofers are the Apollo 11 moon walk deniers.
It speaks well of Apollo that the landing was a human achievement so huge, that many still cannot wrap their heads around it.
Oh, what struck me each time one goober talked was his title, Center for Process Studies.
Ah yes, the CPS, very elite.
There was the story midway through that floors of the WTC were shut down a few weeks before 9/11 — evidentally to plant the network of explosive charges.
So, after all this skullduggery to precisely plant the charges — they initiate the plot by BLASTING A FUEL-LADEN 757 AT 550 MPH THROUGH ALL THEIR HANDIWORK.
Gee, that makes sense….
I watched the rerun and thought it was pretty well done.
They weren’t attempting a straight debunking like Popular Mechanics did. Instead they gave almost equal time to the conspiracy theorists to make their allegations, and omitted much of the technical details in the refuting of the claims.
One thing the “inside job” folks are never asked, though, is “If Osama and al Qaeda are innocent, why did they never say so?”
Of course, those who believe in conspiracies are all fantasizing to one degree or another. The more their beliefs are challenged, the broader and more intricate their imagined conspiratorial networks must become. In the end, they will believe every human in the world is part of the conspiracy, except for themselves and their conspiracy colleagues, before they will acknowledge the simple fact that what they propose simply could not be true.
It’s all a government conspiracy to discredit the anti-war movement from the inside. See, most normal people are repulsed by these insane and unbelievable conspiracies, and of course the troothers are connected to a lot of organizations who want to stop the war in Iraq (and even Afghanistan).
We live in a free country, so an open air mosque can be built in the field where Flight #73 crashed. Others may want to build an open air pig manure sanctuary up wind of the mosque to put this expression of islam in proper context.
What’s really sad is that there is a market for all that insanity – and that sane people are compelled to respond to it.
T(Insane)LF: Truthers Upset With History Channel
I gotta say, the History did an excellent job of not only debunking so many of the 9/11 myths, but also in making the Truthers and their movement look like raving lunatics. Can it get any better then the guys who made Loose Change sitting around i…
I didn’t watch it and SHAME on the History Channel (one of my favs) for giving these idiots a platform to air their lunatic ravings. The sooner these moronic theories are relegated to the ashheap, the better off we will all be.
What’s next? A movie exploring” the possible validity that this was all a Bush/Rove conspiracy? MM – where are you when all these deranged souls need you?
What a waste of air time.
btw: Love the comment posted by Tom W. at 12:56am.
They complain that we didn’t shoot down the plane that hit the Pentagon (Cheney stand down order and all) yet they claim a plane didn’t hit the Pentagon. Hmmmmm
Was it these guys or Discover that aired the “documentary” about how Johnson had Kennedy killed?
Anyone care to speculate on how many secrets this government has kept from the New York Times? But they blew up the WTC and the Pentagon. So we could go into Afghanistan. So we could build a pipeline?
Meanwhile, there is oil off the coast of Florida and in ANWR that we didn’t drill for. Pass the tin foil, I need a hat if I’m going to believe this garbage.
Why in h#ll is the History Channel showing such garbage? Just like when they show the UFO nonsense. It’s impossible to disprove these conspiracies, best just to ignore them.
At least I was able to watch the first two hours on the rise of Sparta on History Channel International. Much more educational.
Adjoran:
“One thing the ‘inside job’ folks are never asked, though, is ‘If Osama and al Qaeda are innocent, why did they never say so?’”
From OBL statement (The London Times, Sept. 17, 2001, “Pakistan issues ultimatum to Taleban”):
“I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation.”
From interview with OBL in the Karachi Ummat (BBC Monitoring South Asia, Sept. 29, 2001, “Full text of Pakistani paper’s ‘exclusive’ interview with Usamah Bin-Ladin”):
“I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children, and other people. Such a practice is forbidden ever in the course of a battle.”
I should point out that people knew that the wourld was round and had a somewhat accurate estimate of the distance from the coast of Spain to the coast of China.. They also knew that the ships that hey were giving Columbus could never make the trip. Columbus was either a very bad geometrician or he lied about the distance. There are those who claim that he knew about something between Europe and Asia and that is why he lied about the distance. Some people claim that he had maps from the Vikings (referring to Vinland).
Of course, there are also people who claim that he knew about it because of the space aliens but those people probably believe the
Conspiracy theories are a symptom of denial.
9/11, the threat of the Islamofascists, threatens the cherished beliefs of many “progressives”, many of them are reacting by retreating into a state of denial , the Truthers are but one example of this.
“I’m telling people the world is round!” !
HHEHEHEHEE…
Oh my.
Most humorous?
The aspect of the nutty conspiracy fools, using google maps to determine a lake as being 6 or 5 miles away from the tragic crash site by road, when in reality the lake is directly a mile and a half away.
As if any wreckage would follow the same path as one’s auto, to find the lake…
Frankly, the entire 9-11 Conspiracy fools came across as complete insanity and juvenile ignorance.
It is rather sad when one thinks of the misguided denial.
I think you can prove this with one question.
Where is the missing plane?
A plane at an airport full of passengers took off. The plane never landed, anywhere.
Required reading for this topic: Vincent Bugliosi’s recent book (very long), which knocks down every single conspiracy theory involving the Kennedy Assassination. The same basic issues are involved with the Truthers as are involved with the Conspiracy Nuts. In fact, the parallels between these two camps of people are quite striking.
Posted by: dave at August 21, 2007 8:20 AM
Oh, Dave. Please tell me you’re a 9/11 truther….that would just completely round out your profile.
I wonder what kind of missile the trutherrs say hit the building. It couldn’t be a ballistic missile because that would have entered from the roof and it would only be the the warhead. Given that it would be descending at near orbital velocity you wouldn’t see it; the damage would have been confined to one wedge; and the fires would not have been so extensive.
Since the flight path was aircraft-like they must mean a Tomahawk. The Tomahawk is much smaller then the width of each Pentagon wedge and carries a “massive” 230 lb warhead of highly energetic explosives giving it an equivalent of 1000lbs of TNT. The truthers never explain how a low mass object makes it through a reinforced concrete wall and out the other side. Not only that, it does it two more times. These guys have a movie concept of the ordinance effectiveness.
A lot of the hopelessly lost conspiracy nuts are getting their paranoid pseudoscience from public broadcasting and from phony perfessers (sic) like Ward Churchill.
I didn’t see the show but wouldn’t be surprised if the Hitler Channel (or similar Moyers-esque political dreck now polluting PBS) hadn’t tried to blame all on sneaky Karl Rove shenanigans just like his secret hurricane machine that created Hurricane Katrina before he blew up the levees. It must be the long term combination of perpetual personal failure, acid flashbacks , wacky weed and never having matured past blaming their parents for everything which makes the Left eternally paranoid.
The most ignorant science quote of all time remains that of Rep. Sheila “The Brain” Jackson-Lee who said:
“Will they be able drive it [the Mars Pathfinder rover] by where the astronauts landed?”
The most ignorant history quote award goes to Al Gore Jr. (on CSPAN) touring Monticello and asks the guide: “And who is that [pointing to prominent sculpture on fireplace mantel] ? To which the guide replied: “Oh, that’s Thomas Jefferson.”
A level of profound stupidity and ignorance Sen. Barbara Boxhead and San Fran Nan (and their respective voters) could only dream of attaining. Maybe they should try to “channel” Eleanor Roosevelt for guidance like Angry Hillary does?
LeaningRt:
“Please tell me you’re a 9/11 truther…”
I’ll respond to the issues brought up on the thread so far. I do not believe that a missile hit the Pentagon. I believe a plane hit the Pentagon. I also believe that the flight 93 crashed in Pennsylvania, right where you think it did.
Spengler’s ghost:
“Vincent Bugliosi’s recent book (very long), which knocks down every single conspiracy theory involving the Kennedy Assassination.”
I know very little about the Kennedy conspiracy theories. I never looked in to it. I have seen that when the House Select Committee released its report in 1979 on the issue, they said:
“The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.”
Does that mean that the House of Representatives of the US government is nothing but a bunch of “truthers”?
dave wins the random logic award hands down.
Don’t see how any of you guys could sit through that bilge.
For me though, I can’t wait to hear the little commie shyster wannabe tell us how Cheney and Bushitler borrowed one of Sandy Bergler’s little black cat-burglar masks…then crawled around the WTC planting explosive charges…
How ’bout it, shyster?
Re: dave at August 21, 2007 9:44 AM
You should read Vincent Bugliosi’s book. It answers ALL those questions. The short version is, some “sound experts” examining gunshots on a newly-found audio tape seemed to have a credible claim for an extra shot, but on further investigation, they were making some false assumptions to come to their conclusion. So if you believed them, you would believe there was another shooter, but it turns out that their model was completely wrong. The radio that recorded the sound was not where they said it was.
As someone who lost a brother in the WTC, I am really pissed that the History channel would air this crap even if it did make the Truthers look insane. I hope I never meet one of these lunitcs because five years of pent up rage is going to explode into one punch that will probaly kill the fool.
Its hopeless to debate these people as they are impervious to facts, logic and reason. The best thing to do is just to laugh at them and openly mock their incredible stupidity and parinoid delusions.
Gerald Posner’s “Case Closed” laid the groundwork for Bugliosi’s book, which to my knowledge at this time has not had a single one of it’s claims challenged to any extent.
Of course, we’re now almost 44 years after the fact, so that much of the passion about JFK’s death by those seeking political gain for their ideology by promoting a specific type of conspiracy theory has cooled with time — the chief proponents of those theories are now in the 70s and 80s, if they’re still alive at all. The Truthers, on the other hand, still have a long way to go before they reach those ages, and the 9/11 attacks are still new enough so that they think proving a Bush/Cheney conspiracy they can destroy their political enemies for all time, so I’m afraid we’re going to be stuck listening to these people at least into the middle part of the 21st Century.
I find it sad (and a little sickening) that it’s even necessary to debunk these morons and their delusional theories.
Oh well – modern world.
to Adjoran and Dave
Dave: yes, Osama denied doing 911 at first. So what? That just makes him a liar and a flip-flop. Name me at least one Al-Qaeda video that does not show picture of Mohammed Atta and WTC. Is that how an innocent man behaves? And what was the last time Osama denied 911? Right, seven years ago. I guess, he was scared then and tried to avert the invasion of Afghanistan.
As a lawyer, I can tell you the scariest thing is that sometimes these type of people get on juries!
Uh, Dave….It is forbidden for a Muslim to lie….to another Muslim. The Q’uran allows, nay, encourages the believer to lie to the infidels (uhm, that would be you and me, Dave, unless you’ve converted recently), to accomplish their ends, which is converting the world to Islam.
So it’s perfectly reasonable for Osama to say that it is forbidden to lie. He just didn’t complete the sentence. Which, I suppose, would be an error of omission, which, I suppose, if you’re being nuanced, isn’t an outright lie.
It’s all in the nuance, right Dave???
One of the silliest moments was when the “truthers” complained that there were no holes in the Pentagon that would have been caused by an engine (“What about those titanium engines? Why aren’t there any holes viable that an engine would have made if a plane hit the Pentagon?” or something close to that) then point out a nice round hole in the second tier as “proof” of a missile hit. Excuse me, but wouldn’t one of the engines make a nice round hole about that same size? After all the hole is twelve feet across, which is, coincidentally, about the same size of an engine on a 757.
They went looking for a nice round hole made by an engine, they find a nice round hole that could have been made by an engine, then they claim that an engine couldn’t have make a nice round hole like that and say it is proof that the Pentagon was hit by several missiles! Man, talk about hypocrisy!
Duchess:
“The Q’uran allows, nay, encourages the believer to lie to the infidels…”
I showed this to my Iranian coworker – a devout Muslim. She laughed. She wants to know where the Quran says this. Can you give me the ref?
Swabjockey:
“crawled around the WTC planting explosive charges”
I do have a question about this. Maybe you can help me. The WTC tower failed at about the 80th floor, with 20 floors above it. The 80 floors below the failure point were intact. So perform this thought experiment:
You have two cranes, each holding a 20 story building in the air 80 stories up. Under one of the 20 story sections, just an inch below it, is an 80 story intact building. This similates the WTC on 9/11. Under the other 20 story building, at the exact same height, you have nothing but air. You drop both 20 story buildings at the exact same instant. One must fall through and demolish an 80 story intact building and the other falls through air. Which do you think would take longer to fall to the ground? I believe the 20 story building falling the the air would fall much faster, because I believe an 80 story intact building would present some resistance. Since you are not a “truther”, you believe that the two 20 story sections would fall at the same speed, because that WTC towers in fact fell at free fall speed, and we know explosives were not used, because that’s what our government told us.
As a comparison, look what happened when the Hotel New World collapsed. This was a 6 story building. Unlike the 80 stories of the WTC that were completely intact, the Hotel New World fell completely on its own due to extremely poor construction – the building was poorly made and simply crumbled on its own. Nevertheless, it took this 6 story building a minute to collapse. This is because even poorly made buildings provide resistance to collapse. The 100 story WTC building, however, collapsed in 10 seconds (free fall speed). Can you explain this to me? I did not find an explanation to this when I read the Popular Science book.
Umm..Dave! Free fall speed is 32fps/ps.
You do the math (challenged).
Dave
About Osama’s lies:
Whether Qu’ran permits lying or not is irrelevant. Supposedly Qu’ran does not permit murder too, but that did not stop Osama from claiming that it does.
“The WTC tower failed at about the 80th floor, with 20 floors above it.”
how many hundreds tons of steel and glass would 20 floors of WTC be? imagine if that amount of weight would be dropped on the WTC tower — are you telling me the whole thing wouldn’t crumble from impact?
The scariest thing to me was at the very end when they said that these conspiracy theorists need to be silenced. And also the people commenting here about how “nutty” or “whacked-out” these people are. I hope that you all remember that it is everyone’s right to talk about whatever the hell they want to talk about. If this is the kind of stuff they want to spend their time researching and promoting, more power to them. You don’t have to agree with it, and you don’t have to accept it as truth. Just move on…it’s their right as a US citizen to speak out, just like it’s yours to speak out against them.
Move on people; let your fellow Americans believe what they want to believe and remind yourself that free speech isn’t yours alone.
Sharpshooter:
“Umm..Dave! Free fall speed is 32fps/ps. You do the math (challenged).”
time = sqr(2(1350)/32) = 9.2 seconds
This is using the acceleration due to gravity in a vacuum. The buildings, however, did not fall in a vacuum. If they did, the objects would have been falling at 200 mph when they hit the ground. Terminal velocity is much less than this. Therefore, the time to fall at free fall speed in air would therefore be greater than 9.2 seconds. I don’t know how to calculate that, but 10 seconds sounds pretty close to me.
armilnov:
“imagine if that amount of weight would be dropped on the WTC tower — are you telling me the whole thing wouldn’t crumble from impact?”
It was not “dropped” from any height, it merely failed at one point. The building might collpase, but it would not happen at free fall speed. Did you know that the lower 80 stories of the WTC supported the upper twenty stories for 30 years? The lower 80 stories was designed to support the upper 20 stories. That’s how they build buildings. Buildings provide more resistance than air. That’s why the Hotel New World did not collapse in 1 second, but took 60 seconds,
There’s only one important question concerning the attacks, did the US gov’t allow/participate in 9/11?
The answer to that query would explain the illegal wire-taps, suspension of habeas corpus, banning of books like “America Deceived” from Amazon, detaining of dissenters in fences miles away from events, and multiple wars based on lies.
How can the gov’t be innocent in 9/11 when we have caught it lying so many times (WACO, Ruby Ridge, no WMDs, USS Liberty, Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, Pearl Harbor, ETC.)?
In law, if you determine a person lies ONCE during his testimony, it can be assumed that he lied in the remainder of his testimony. How come we do not hold the gov’t to the same standard as it holds us to?
The gov’t lied to us about Iraq and more Americans have died there than in 9/11. If the gov’t lied about Iraq then why is everyone so reluctant to believe that the gov’t lied about 9/11?
Final link (before Google Books bends to pressure and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)
“And also the people commenting here about how “nutty” or “whacked-out” these people are. I hope that you all remember that it is everyone’s right to talk about whatever the hell they want to talk about.”
Which includes ridiculing idiots like the troothers, doesn’t it?
Sorry, but free speech demands that stupid people who abuse free speech by spreading outrageous lies, get denegrated and ridiculed.
No one’s trying to silence these dopes, which is why these smelly lunatics were allowed to babble on camera for two hours.
And don’t worry, the troothers will not be silenced. These are the Lyndon Larouche/Amway Salesmen/Daily Kos type shameless shills of the world – impervious to outside pressure, they only hear the voices in their heads.
bin Laden later admitted he knew about the attacks before they happened. From the hard-right outlet CNN:
(CNN) — Osama bin Laden recounts with delight the September 11 terrorist attacks against the United States as he talks with associates on a videotape released Thursday by the Bush administration.
Reveling in the details of the fatal attacks, bin Laden brags in Arabic that he knew about them beforehand and says the destruction went beyond his hopes. He says the attacks “benefited Islam greatly.”
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/ret.bin.laden.videotape/
I liked the claim by the truthers that debris was found 6 miles from the Flight 93 crash site, so a missile must have hit it in midair to spread the debris that far. They came up with 6 miles by using MapQuest to map to the impact point to the point where the debris was found. Of course, MapQuest mapped it based on driving directions, not a straight line, which shows it is only 1.5 miles between the two points.
dave,
I recommend you take a class or two in structural / civil engineering before proposing thought experiments.
The solution to lousy free speech is better free speech.
Evan, Is the NYTimes still publishing? How about the City Pages? Are the editors of the LA Times in jail?
“America Deceived: Homeland Security Warning: Possession of this novel may result in unlimited detention. ”
HAHAHAHA
Found this quote:
“Regarding “America Deceived” It was NEVER available via Amazon or B&N. It was published via “Fast Track” at iUniverse.com (a subsidiary of B&N, btw) IT WAS NEVER BANNED FROM ANYWHERE
The author choose not to have it released via B&N or Amazon per iUniverse. Political motivation or just a cheapskate? You decide.
If you would like, you can call them yourself and ask. The phone number for iUniverse is 1-800-AUTHORS. No, really, call them and ask if it was ever distributed by Amazon or B&N and they will tell you it wasn’t as it was a “fast Track” publication.
It is the speculation of this commenter that the author of the previous comment is actually the author of the book looking for some easy publicity via blogs. A google search on “America Decieved” will bring up hundreds of very similary comments, but all have the link to iUniverse in them.
Coincidence?
”
http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archives/2006/09/the_day_america.html
dave,
I recommend you take a class or two in structural / civil engineering before proposing thought experiments.
The solution to lousy free speech is better free speech.
Evan, Is the NYTimes still publishing? How about the City Pages? Are the editors of the LA Times in jail?
“America Deceived: Homeland Security Warning: Possession of this novel may result in unlimited detention. ”
HAHAHAHA
Found this quote:
“Regarding “America Deceived” It was NEVER available via Amazon or B&N. It was published via “Fast Track” at iUniverse.com (a subsidiary of B&N, btw) IT WAS NEVER BANNED FROM ANYWHERE
The author choose not to have it released via B&N or Amazon per iUniverse. Political motivation or just a cheapskate? You decide.
If you would like, you can call them yourself and ask. The phone number for iUniverse is 1-800-AUTHORS. No, really, call them and ask if it was ever distributed by Amazon or B&N and they will tell you it wasn’t as it was a “fast Track” publication.
It is the speculation of this commenter that the author of the previous comment is actually the author of the book looking for some easy publicity via blogs. A google search on “America Decieved” will bring up hundreds of very similary comments, but all have the link to iUniverse in them.
Coincidence?
”
http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archives/2006/09/the_day_america.html
An excellent debunking of the Pentagon-missile theory:
911 Case Study: Pentagon Flight 77
Evan wrote: In law, if you determine a person lies ONCE during his testimony, it can be assumed that he lied in the remainder of his testimony. How come we do not hold the gov’t to the same standard as it holds us to?
Or hold commenters to that same standard.
America Deceived – available at Amazon for the bargain price of $221.99
I don’t know, maybe your favorite book isn’t flying off the shelves since most readers are turned off by the author’s lack of writing skill and possible racism. One Amazon reviewer wrote:
Nice plug for a crappy book though.
skydaddy:
“I recommend you take a class or two in structural / civil engineering before proposing thought experiments”
Can you save me the trouble? I assume you took these classes. Can you explain to me how skycrapers provide no more resistance to a falling abject than air? Or is the explanation so complex that no one can understand it who is not a structural engineer?
Dave
“It was not “dropped” from any height, it merely failed at one point.”
How do you define “failed”?
Let us say 81-st floor collapses. All the weight of all 19 floors above floor 81 will fall all nine feet of inter-floor space onto floor 80. When i say inter-floor space, I am referring to the distance between ceiling and floor at any given floor.
F=m*a
m = “mass of all 19 floors”
a = “acceleration gained by 19 floors while falling 9 feet of space between ceiling and floor”
Believe me, the force would have been enormous. Buildings were designed to withstand pressure, not impacts of such force.
“The lower 80 stories was designed to support the upper 20 stories.”
Do an experiment:
lie down and put your 20 pound dumbell on your stomach while lying face-up. Next, ask someone to drop that 20 pound dumbell on your stomach from the height of 3 feet.
In terms of WTC: supporting something that is at rest, even if it is of enormous mass, is much easier than stopping that same mass once it gets moving. Reality is that the weight of 20 floors gained so much kinetic energy when ceiling collapsed to the floor at 81st floor, that nothing in the world would have stopped it.
Let us say , I am so strong I can lift up a car: are you saying that dropping that car on me, even from a small height of two feet, would not crush me like a bug?
Only One Cannoli,
Thanks for the link, that Amazon page is hilarious.
I guess anyone stupid enough to write a book full of troother tripe, would also be stupid enough to believe that he could get someone to pay $221.99 for it. By trolling on websites. Makes the Nigerian account phishing E-mails look clever, in comparison.
Looks like he’s sold a total of 3 copies. And I’m pretty sure the author bought all three. With the credit card he stole out of his gramma’s purse.
I would actually love to see this crappy book. It’s a veritable Monument to the Moronic.
Poor Dave’s scientific reasoning has been seriously compromised since the Weekly World News went bust.
The twin towers are a framework transmitting the burden not simply “to the lower 80 floors” but sideways, downward and diagonally to the foundation and vertically as well as laterally in high winds. Bin Laden’s first attempt during the Slick kleptocracy in 1993 attempted, unsuccessfully, to undermine the foundation. On 9/11 the uneven application of 20 floors of collapse to the lower floors and thermally weakened framework didn’t simply push downward it was torsional and diagonal and cumulative. It’s the twisting of load on the (likely shifted) piers which probably brought down the I-35W bridge, too. Engineering isn’t simply about static loads it’s about keeping static loads from becoming dynamic ones.
Bin Laden denied 9/11 and Slick denied Monica. Both lies were expedient to both liars in hoodwinking their most steadfast supporters. Beware of those whom would take either Slick or Bin Laden at their word to the peril of those less gullible.
I always wonder why the Truthers stay in America. If I was insane enough to believe their conspiracy theories, I would leave the country as soon as I could and never come back. If the government would kill 3,000 of its own citizens, what would stop them from killing the people who discovered their plot? I certainly would not be posting on a blog which could be traced back to me.
For you Truthers out there, turn off your computer and leave the building as the agents of the Party are coming to make YOU disappear! Remember, they always come for you in the night.
armilnov and viking01:
An entire thread of people calling the “truthers” names like moron, and the explanation I get for my question from these two is supposed to be intellectual. Hilarious. That’s why I come to this blog. It doesn’t get any better.
armilnov:
The WTC towers were not built on a foundation of flesh and bones, but steel beams. Your analogy of dropping weights on your stomach is insane.
Try this analogy:
The weight of the 20 stories was probably 1/4 of the weight of the 80 stories below it (can you tell how I calculated that? Maybe someone will challenge me on it). I just built a shed that weighs about 100 pounds. I doubt if this shed is over-engineered to support weight proportional to it own weight on a scale as well as the WTC. So if I drop an object onto my shed that has the same footpront as my shed that weighs 25 pounds, even from 9 feet high, will it come crashing to the ground? I don’t think so. I think I can drop an entire duplicate shed onto my shed from 9 feet, and it will not crumble.
dolemonte:
“bin Laden later admitted he knew about the attacks before they happened.”
Oh, I forgot. That’s that tape that OBL accidently left laying on the ground in Jalalabad, made with a videotape recorder with such poor quality that you can barely hear what he said and can barely make out images (but you can see that OBL’s nose got much shorter and fatter since his last appearance). The LA Times said “the tape was of such poor quality and bin Laden’s words so difficult to discern that viewers took away from it what they wanted.”
It’s too bad that even with all his millions, OBL couldn’t buy a better video recorder.
The quote I gave was from an actual interview with OBL
NoDonkey,
Yep, it’s pretty funny. And the first few pages of this thing are available online. MORONIC doesn’t begin to describe it.
Maybe Mr. E.A. Bayre the third AKA Evan will supply the link his stinker.
Dave,
It just occured to me that the plane itself, by hitting the tower, would create far larger void in the tower than the inter-floor space. So, when WTC steel structure was weakened by burning fuel, the sudden collapse of the framework at that point would result in top 19 floors falling much larger distance than just 9 feet.
Again, buildings were designed to withstand mass of top floors at rest, not falling on them through 9 or more feet of empty space.
The Joint Inquiry charged that US policymakers had wanted Usama Bin Ladin killed as early as August 1998 and believed CIA personnel understood that. However, the government had not removed the ban on assassination and did not provide clear direction or authorization for CIA to kill Bin Ladin or make covert attacks against al-Qa’ida The JI said that the CIA was reluctant to seek authority to assassinate Bin Ladin and averse to taking advantage of ambiguities in the authorities it did receive that might have allowed it more flexibility. page xxi
From what I have read about the construction of the Twin Towers, they were relatively flimsy with the outer skin carrying more of the load than is typical in a large building. The inner steal framework and the core were therefore weaker. Once the the top floors started falling, the rest of the structure probably didn’t provide much resistance. Also, as it fell, the additional floors would have added weight to crush the remaining lower floors.
Smaller buildings are often build out of solid concrete with steel reinforcement. Such a building would be much sturdier.
EI
Let the record show that at no point did I label dishonest “dave” a moron.
For economy of bandwidth I leave that duty solely to himself.
Generally, fire doesn’t melt steel. But fire can make steel expand. The expansion can make it deform and lose it’s strength. The expansion can also push objects attached to the steel, like walls.
As one fire chief said, he’d almost never seen steel melt at a fire, but he’d seen plenty of deformed steel as a result of a fire.
No, no, no dammit! The shyster said it was “free fall”….the building had to be stronger than air….dammit!!
You call yourselves “engineers”….you’re no better than those stupid bastards who join the military. Pawn, lackey, minion, Neanderthal….aaaarrrrrrrggggggg!
For crying out loud…I built a shed in my backyard….I know what I’m talking about.
Bush did it. Planted the explosive charges…planted the cheap tape recording of OBL….just so he could take over Iraq to get the oil. I’m not the moron. You wingnuts are the moron’s !!!
Did I tell you the US government is corrupt? It should be overthrown. We need to let me and my commie pal install a utopian paradise. Everything will be OK then. I promise.
The Truthers NEED to believe the government did this to justify their treasonous actions. These people have severe mental issues where they believe that Bush is evil and that the Islamists are the good guys. If you start with the narrative that Bush and Republicans in general are evil, then the “facts” fall neatly into place. Its all about the narrative, facts be dammed.
Armilov:
“Let us say , I am so strong I can lift up a car: are you saying that dropping that car on me, even from a small height of two feet, would not crush me like a bug?”
I’m still laughing….
Let’s look at this example. Lets say you weigh 150 pounds. This is not an accurate analogy, then, because a car weighs about 20 times as much as you do. With the WTC, the 20 floors weighed about 25% of the 80 floors below. So a correct analogy would be to use a 40 pound weight. So let’s say we drop a 40 pound weight on your head from a distance of 9 feet. Let’s assume that it is dropped in such a way that it does not slide off to one side, but stays on top of your head. What will happen to you? Do you think the 40 pound weight will fall straight through your body to the floor as if you were not there at all, completely destroying your skeleton? I doubt it. I think it would crush your skull and kill you, but I doubt the weight would fall to a level lower than your adams apple. Even flesh and bones provide resistance to a falling object. 48 six inch thick steel beams should provide more resistance than air.
“It just occured to me that the plane itself, by hitting the tower…”
Building 7 also fell at free fall speed. No plane hit that building.
iconoclast:
“relatively flimsy with the outer skin carrying more of the load than is typical in a large building”
The outer structure was not designed to support any of the building. The 48 core beams supported the bulding, and were designed to support many times the weight of the building. You can see the core structure here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/ndocs/wtc1_core.jpg
Swabjockey:
A more impressive answer than I expected. I’m proud of you.
Dave,
“The WTC towers were not built on a foundation of flesh and bones, but steel beams.”
Exactly. What happened to these steel beams after 2 hours of jet fuel burning? They metled and collapsed. The top 19 floors (with all steel, concrete and glass that comprised them) fell into the void, gaining enormous kinetic energy on their way. The building was designed to support the top 19 floors at rest, not withstand the impact of them free-falling on it. Then the floor below collaped, then another one below etc.
Besides, watch the video closely. The floors were imploding one after another on themselves.
“The weight of the 20 stories was probably 1/4 of the weight of the 80 stories below”
Exaclty. It was an enormous building. Believe me, 1/4 of it is still an enormous amount of mass. Imagine that falling through 9 feet of empty space. Nobody designed WTC to withstand impact of such thing falling 9 or more feet.
“I doubt if this shed is over-engineered to support weight proportional to it own weight on a scale as well as the WTC.”
Yet again you miss the point.
Read closely.
The buildings are designed to support static load, not a huge mass of steel and conrete smashing on top of them from height of 9 or more feet.
“So if I drop an object onto my shed that has the same footpront as my shed that weighs 25 pounds, even from 9 feet high, will it come crashing to the ground? I don’t think so. ”
You are right!
25 pounds is not 19 floors worth of metal and concrete. Wood is a different material, that has different properties. Your analogy is way out of scale and proportion.
Your point about hotel is false, because the hotel disintegrated as a whole due to poor construction, as you said yourself. No enormous mass was dropped on top of it — which is exactly how top 19 floors behaved once steel beams gave way. Hotel is more like a house of cards crumbling. WTC is more like a house of cards with a cellphone smashing into it from the top.
Hey Dave, thanks for admitting you’re a Troother.
Yet another bin Laden admission is here:
By MAAMOUN YOUSSEF, Associated Press Writer
CAIRO, Egypt – Osama bin Laden purportedly said in an audio tape Tuesday that Zacarias Moussaoui _ the only person convicted in the U.S. for the Sept. 11 attacks _ had nothing to do with the operation.
“He had no connection at all with Sept. 11,” the speaker, claiming to be bin Laden, said in the tape posted on the Internet.
“I am the one in charge of the 19 brothers and I never assigned brother Zacarias to be with them in that mission,” he said, referring to the 19 hijackers.
The al-Qaida chief said the Sept. 11 hijackers were divided into two groups, “pilots and assistants.”
“Since Zacarias Moussaoui was still learning how to fly, he wasn’t No. 20 in the group, as your government has claimed,” bin Laden said. “It knows this very well,” he added.
Bin Laden said Moussaoui was not a security risk for al-Qaida, because he did not have knowledge of the plot.
“Brother Moussaoui was arrested two weeks before the events, and if he had known something _ even very little _ about the Sept. 11 group, we would have informed the leader of the operation, Mohammad Atta, and the others … to leave America before being discovered,” Bin Laden said.
http://www.comcast.net/news/international/index.jsp?cat=INTERNATIONAL&fn=/2006/05/23/398475.html
Armilov:
“Let us say , I am so strong I can lift up a car: are you saying that dropping that car on me, even from a small height of two feet, would not crush me like a bug?”
I’m still laughing….
Let’s look at this example. Lets say you weigh 150 pounds. This is not an accurate analogy, then, because a car weighs about 20 times as much as you do. With the WTC, the 20 floors weighed about 25% of the 80 floors below. So a correct analogy would be to use a 40 pound weight. So let’s say we drop a 40 pound weight on your head from a distance of 9 feet. Let’s assume that it is dropped in such a way that it does not slide off to one side, but stays on top of your head. What will happen to you? Do you think the 40 pound weight will fall straight through your body to the floor as if you were not there at all, completely destroying your skeleton? I doubt it. I think it would crush your skull and kill you, but I doubt the weight would fall to a level lower than your adams apple. Even flesh and bones provide resistance to a falling object. 48 six inch thick steel beams should provide more resistance than air.
“It just occured to me that the plane itself, by hitting the tower…”
Building 7 also fell at free fall speed. No plane hit that building.
iconoclast:
“relatively flimsy with the outer skin carrying more of the load than is typical in a large building”
The outer structure was not designed to support any of the building. The 48 core beams supported the bulding, and were designed to support many times the weight of the building. You can see the core structure here:
911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/ndocs/wtc1_core.jpg
Swabjockey:
A more impressive answer than I expected. I’m proud of you.
Dave,
you missed my last posting. read it.
Dave,
concentrate
holding any weight at rest is much easier than surviving that same weight hit you. if you cannot understand this simple concept, I cannot help you.
you are making fun of my car analogy while completely missing the point
I can lift and hold car, but that does not mean that I will survive that same car dropping on me from a small height.
WTC: just because a tower can hold its top 19 floors easily does not mean it will survive the very same floors smashing into it from free-fall.
get it?
sure, weight ratio and materials is not same, you are free to make fun of that all you want. I am still waiting, though, for any comments of substance about the concept of the analogy.
“What will happen to you? Do you think the 40 pound weight will fall straight through your body to the floor as if you were not there at all, completely destroying your skeleton? ”
I am not mostly empty space. I have muscle and and bone. WTC was mostly empty space.
How can the same government that can’t keep wiretapping a secret or hide the fact that the President got a BJ from a fat intern in the Oval Office keep secret something that would require so many people staying quiet?
These people really need to get a grip.
armilov:
“25 pounds is not 19 floors worth of metal and concrete.”
Yes, and my shed is not an 80 story skyscraper built with a core structure of 48 steel beams. I’ts about proportionality, and that is what you cannot understand. It doesn’t matter if the top part fell 9 feet. Take any building in the world and drop a weight on it that is equal to 25% of its total weight, and that weight will not fall to the ground as if the building is not there. To think that this is possible is insane.
armilnov / Russ
Since you’re still “debating” the shyster, you must have missed my last post…
For what it’s worth though…I think you’ve got the “real deal” this time. It’s the shyster and not his sockpuppet.
Russ. That’s the point… “They” didn’t keep it a secret. They shyster and his merry men have discovered the “truth”…
russ:
“How can the [US government] keep secret something that would require so many people staying quiet?”
How did OBL keep it secret?
Tim W
I agree they have issues. But it’s my belief that many troothers and libs are motivated by the 1st Commandment of Liberalism — Thou Shalt Not Be Judgemental. Since we’re all equally good and we’re all equally bad the good liberal doesn’t want to discern between good and bad behavior as opposed to the bad conservatives who are more likely to use the terms good and evil and Axis of Evil. See, the only group that one is allowed to judge are the judgemental, that is the repubs, Bush, Cheney, CQ commenters.
So, if you’re a lib and you’re trying to avoid making moral judgements about others and some truly bad people fly airliners into your buildings and massacre thousands of your fellow citizens then you just might have to do some intellectual cartwheels to pretend that George Bush or his CIA blew up the WTC. It’s a little like the character Lenny in the movie Memento forgetting what he knows is true so he can hold onto a comfortable lie.
I’m still visualizing dave’s do-it-yourself dog house in his back yard and his offspring aiming the rubber band powered glider packed with Thermite toward it. A fine example of Space Age materials stress testing which won’t overtax the weekly allowance.
Understandably Fido will be displaced but what the hell does that have to do with the World Trade Center? If only Roebling and van der Rohe had used duct tape and super glue there’d be no need for Pythagoras or Euclid.
Even the fevered brain of the shyster can handle the concept that a few “terrorist cells” can control information flow infinitesimally more effectively than the U.S. Gov.
You guys haven’t figured it out yet. I don’t think the shyster really “believes” in the conspiracy…since he’s one of the true believers in Communism, he’ll do anything…say anything to bring down the U.S. government.
Remember, he’s on record as saying that he supports the VIOLENT overthrow of our elected government. It’s so corrupt that we can’t even “fairly” elect representatives who will not continue the corruption and raping/pillaging of the rest of the world…therefore, the U.S. government must be VIOLENTLY overthrown and replaced by people who think like dave the shyster. His commie utopia would be….well, utopia.
“It doesn’t matter if the top part fell 9 feet.”
Huh? What about the F=ma? What about the mass of 19 floors and the force it gained after accelerating all the way through that 9-feet distance? They do not matter too?
“Take any building in the world and drop a weight on it that is equal to 25% of its total weight, and that weight will not fall to the ground as if the building is not there.”
Are you saying this as an expert architectural engineer or as someone whose experience in engineering is building one wooden shack?
Look, when you got 19-floors worth of metal and concrete free-falling 9 or more feet, it does not matter what you got at the receiving end — it will be crushed. The WTC was mostly empty space, with framework of metal. The framework was designed to hold top floors at rest. The framework was not designed to receive impact of that enormous force and hold out. The floors imploded one after another, each one of them receiving the impact of increasing mass. That is something WTC was not designed to survive, was it?
Don’t bother with Dave as he is beyond reason and needs serious mental help. It must really suck to be him living in a world of parinoid delusions looking over his shoulder all the time wondering when the government agents are going to take him away. What a sad, lonely unhappy life he must live. I am not sure if I should feel sorry for him or laugh and ridicule him. Its always so pathetic how they fall back to tower 7 after all their other nonsense is debunked.
For you Truthers out there, get off the bong and please get mental help. You will lead much happier and more productive lives. In the meantime you need to remember that they always come for you at night!
It’s 19 moving floors versus one (the floor directly beneath) and the falling mass of floors will hit and crush one floor at a time as we saw. dave’s argument that 75% of the building should be able to withstand the weight of 19 falling floors is baloney.
But then arguing about this is like squeezing a bar of soap. Win this point and it’s just on to the next complaint on dave’s list.
Captain,
Mankind had done considerably better than calculated the circumference of the planet by the time of Galileo’s publication in 1610. After all, Ferdinand Magellan’s expedition to circumnavigate the planet had arrived back in Spain, after a 16-month voyage, in 1522. So, men had been sailing entirely around the planet for almost 90 years.
Dave,
The World Trade Centers did not freefall down. If you look at the video of their collapse you can see the debris ejected by the collapse falls faster than the buildling. The debris is freefalling, the building is not.
Simply put, you believe in nonsense because you can’t see the obvious even when it’s replayed a hundred times on TV.
History Channel Tries to Put Conspiracies to Rest
Is there anyone out there who feels like I do; that all this undue attention to these WTC (9/11) conspiracy theorists is just making matters worse? Really, blogs like PM, Captain’s Quarters and LGF and others seem to giggle and laugh …
This fire causes building 7 to fall at free fall speed into its own footprint:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/pp190104building7.jpg
This fire does not cause this building to collapse:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/spain_fire40a.jpg
That makes sense,
swabjockey05,
I’m not worried about Dave. He is simply trying to be contrarian and is not serious. He enjoys trying to get a rise out of people and doesn’t really believe what he’s trying to pass off.
Most people outgrow this kind of stuff in high school. One day, Dave may outgrow it too.
Dave,
You are a complete lunatic suffering from parinoid delusions and need mental help. You really need to leave the country before Bush’s Halliburton trained storm troopers drag you out of bed and send you to Guantanimo for re education. They will come for you as you have discovered their evil deeds. If I was you, which thank god I am not, I would document your discovery and send it to a trusted party so when you dissapear the truth will get out.
Dave,
about WTC 7 : I refer you to this thorough, scientific explanation by Popular Mechanics of that building’s collapse due to terrorist attack, not some alleged conspiracy.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5#wtc7
Dave…you sad, lonely, pathetic excuse for a man!!! Why can’t you just understand the truth?
19 young, Arab men with very limited flight training on small, private aircraft hijacked commercial airliners with box-cutters and navigated them precisely into buildings at the request of some guy living in a cave.
Duh!
Your absurd theories have continuously been debunked by the MSM and the government. You really need a clue! We had to go through this before when on November 22, 1963, two averaged-sized men in the state of Texas suffered multiple gunshot wounds from one single .22 caliber bullet. Now any card-carrying member of the NRA knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that this so-called “magic bullet theory” was completely absurd and unbelievable but you know what? The MSM and the government produced scientists, theorists, physicists to debunk all those “troothers” and did it through a typical “you’re pathetic for even questioning us” manner you see today. Hello Dave? Anybody home?
“The great mass of people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.” — Adolf Hitler
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Hermann Goering
“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.” — Adolf Hitler
“As soon as by one’s own propaganda even a glimpse of right on the other side is admitted, the cause for doubting one’s own right is laid.” — Adolf Hitler
“How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.” — Adolf Hilter
The difference between ignorance and stupidity is that ignorance is CHOOSING to be stupid. Afterall, the Deutsche Bank is still standing. Dave, you are seriously wasting your time on people who will always have a masochistic need to follow.
Viking that was good. Maybe I can talk to my contacts over at DIA and NGA…do you think “they” could see Fido’s house burning in the shyster’s back yard?
I don’t think “we” have enough information yet. Even with “our” illegal face recognition algorithms to filter out the burning leaf piles etc I don’t think we can whittle it down…yet…Perhaps if the shyster keeps up his brilliant commentary it’ll be his downfall. Soon “we” may be able to glean enough intell. Just a couple more bits of info and I think “we’ll” be able to locate his rathole. Once we’ve got his geolocation, the “black bag” team will make quick work of it…
On a personal note regarding the “experience” question of the hijackers… When I was taking flying lessons I had an instructor that is also a B-1 bomber pilot. I commented that it must be very different flying a huge,super fast bomber compared to these little Pipers. He said “Naw, its all the same.. move the stick left you go left. Move it right you go right.”
I have not had many hours of training myself, as of yet, but I am pretty sure if I were to take control of ANY aircraft already in flight, I could put it where I wanted. Flying is relatively easy. The landings are the difficult part. Obviously these guys had no desire for that.
Another side note: Bin Laden was not living in a cave at the time since we had not invaded Afghanistan at that time. He was living quite comfortably among his brotherhood of Taliban hosts with access to pretty much anything he wished.
Tantor:
You are correct that the buildings did not fall at precisely free-fall speed. I should have said “near free fall speed”. If free fall speed is 9.2 seconds, the issue is not that if the buildings fell in exactly 9.2 seconds, that means that explosives were used and the government was involved, and if the buildings fell in 9.9 seconds, that means the buildings fell on their own due to a structural fault, no explosives were used, and the government was not involved. The issue is not about a few tenths of a second. If the buildings fell on their own, it would take minutes, not a few tenths of a second away from freefall. Why did the New World Hotel, a 6 story building, take a minute to fall, when buldings naturally fall at free fall speed? Maybe you’ll repeat arminov, and say the top 20 floors were really heavy. Buildings, however, are built with similar safety margins, regardless of the size. A 6 story building and a 100 story building are both designed to support maybe 2 or 3 times their actual weight. If the top twenty stories were really heavy, the structure of the bottom 80 floors reflects this. When buildings fall due to a collapse, such as in an earthquake, things like this happen:
911research.com/wtc/analysis/compare/docs/taiwan_six.jpg
The building in the upper right, for example, is at least 10 stories. It fell quite a distance before encountering a structure next to it. What happened? Because the 10 story building was so heavy, did it smash through the building next to it as if were not there, then crash to the ground? No. The building next to it, even though it is smaller and not built to withstand a 10 story building falling on it, not only slowed its fall, but actually stopped the 10 story building from falling to the ground. How can this happen when buildings cannot stop a moving structure any better than air?
Why do you think there has not been a revolution in the building demolition industry as a result of the WTC buildings falling? Demolition companies spend a lot of money planting expolsives throughout a building to get them to fall within their own footprint. They now know from the towers that taking out some support columns 20% down from the top of a building will result in a perfect fall. In respect to WTC7, they now know they can simply damage one side of a building with a wrecking ball and start a small fire in it, and it will also come crashing down perfectly within its own footprint. Do you think demolition companies are using these techniques now? Are they making a lot less money because every now knows how easy it is?
Of course the reaction I get here is exactly what I would expect. Most people are psychologically incapable of allowing themselves to even consider the possibility I bring up. I would bet my life that not a single person here ever read any material promoting anything other than the “official” version of 9/11. It is enough to say the “truthers” are crazy and ignore them. This would not be the case if the events of 9/11 had happened in another country. Either a country that would be psychologically neutral (Iceland?), or, better yet, an “evil” country like Venezuela or Russia. In that case, if the identical events happened in one of those countries, you would allow yourself to read about what happened and not accept the governments’ version as the truth. By doing this, you would quickly realize that the government is lying, and that the government was involved. If it was Russia, for example, you would realize that only the Russian government could have done it, and in that case the Russian people would be unable to accept the fact. It’s psychology 101.
Dave:
Some want it both ways. In your first post on this thread you pointed out that OBL denied responsibility on Sept. 17, 2001 and again in an interview on Sept. 29, 2001. Some here said he was lying because the Koran, according to them, tells him to lie to infidels. Then maybe he realized it would help AQ if people thought he was responsible and supposedly said he was. But the, “Koran tells you to lie thinkers”, believe him when he supposedly recanted. Funny how that works.
Some here have a hard time wrapping their minds around freefall and resistance to freefall. No one has yet given a reasonable reply to your hypothetical @ August 21, 2007 1:29 PM. I’ll ask again with 1 change.
You have two cranes, each holding a 20 story building in the air 80 stories up. Under one of the 20 story sections, just 10 feet below it, is an 80 story intact building. This similates the WTC on 9/11. Under the other 20 story building, at the exact same height, you have nothing but air. You drop both 20 story buildings at the exact same instant. One must fall through and demolish an 80 story intact building and the other falls through air. Which do you think would take longer to fall to the ground?
The answer is obvious to me.
Iconoclast38:
I agree it’s not hard to control an aircraft in flight if you understand the controls and basic aerodynamics(lift, stall, etc). Taking off is harder and landing even much more. An emergency landing takes a lot of training. What happened in DC looks like what could be described as an emergency landing. The plane that hit the Pentagon just finished a hard 180 degree turn, while simultaneously descending 1000’s of feet, then skimmed the ground for a few hundred yards before hitting it’s mark. I think that hijacker had way more then a few hours training on a flight sim and in the air.
Actually it takes a bit of work to control a heavy aircraft safely and effectively presuming one wants to survive the flight. That’s why pilots get paid far more than, er, Soros shills at moveon.org or garbagemen. The 9/11 terrorists had no such desire for survival with their goal to kill as many as possible. They did have plenty of time to learn flight basics at that Florida air school while Clintoon was busy diddling his interns.
Any psychiatrist knows that poor Dave’s holier than thou ramblings would be more convincing and less wordy had he less need to convince himself of relevance than of other’s (imagined) inferiority to himself.
The lack of understanding of physics exhibited by Dave is astounding. His ignorance of potential energy is almost equaled by his refusal to embrace reason, or logic. That coupled with a complete absence of computable numbers cited makes any attempt at a discussion a complete waste of time as he has put nothing concrete forward which would allow him to be proven wrong. Baseless assertions and pointless thought experiments do not equate to reasoned thinking, but rather only prove his total lack of a grasp of momentum, mass and acceleration.
Exponentially compounded inertial mass is NOT going to be slowed down by any sort of steel/concrete structure that was never designed to withstand the forces the Twin Towers experienced.
Dave, what is the structural strength of your backyard shed? Do you even know? Do you have a clue as how to even figure it out? That is what is meant by taking a class on structural engineering. You don’t even have a basic knowledge on how to figure out your own backyard shed, but you want to say you can prove that the collapse of the Twin Towers is an impossibility? What load are the walls designed to hold up in both your shed, and the Twin Towers?
Saying your shed weighs 100 lbs is not enough, you have to know how much they’ll actually support before failure, before you can cite them as a comparrison. Talking about dropping buildings on each other is idiotic as that is not what happened in the Twin Towers collapse, not even close. A structural failure in a closed system (the TT) bears no resemblance to your ‘thought experiment’ of dropping a building on top of another.
Your willing belief in dark conspiracies shows that you have already formed your conceptions of reality and are twisting what happened to fit into your preconceived notions. You will flatly refuse to examine your preconceived ideas in order to confront reality.
You sir, are an ignoramous by choice, not by accident.
I’m tired of the strain. Complex theories should be left to academics. It is much easier to become a jingoist and consume until I am bankrupt with my debased currency. Mainstream tautology is for me. No thinking involved because “they” are the experts especially the History Channel, controlled by NBC (war profiteer) and Hearst publishing ( just bring me the pictures and I’ll get you a war” ). Damn it, there I go “thinking” and “researching” again. I’ve got to stop this. I’m going to sit down in front of the TV and watch Fox News drinking my aspartame rich Diet Coke with my “natural” MSG laden microwave dinner, consume a couple Prozac, and dream about my fantasy football league.
9/11 was pulled off by 19 Saudis controlled by a cleric with a laptop in Pakistan hospital, I mean a cave in Afghanistan. If I repeat it long enough maybe it will sink in.
How bout dem Bears?
9/11 ‘Truthers’ Smacked Down
Last week, the History Channel did a show examining 9/11 conspiracies and systematically debunking them. Captain’s Quarters talks about it here.
One highlight of the show is when theorists suggest that the towers should not have collapsed in on…