April 16, 2007

The End Result Of Multiculturalism

Katherine Kersten follows up today on her column last week regarding the installation of foot-washing basins for Muslims at Minneapolis Community Technical College. Kersten digs deeper into the process by which MCTC will modify its facilities to accommodate the requirements of a specific religion, and discovers the less-than-tolerant agenda of the group advising them (via Power Line):

But I also discovered something more important for colleges seeking guidance on "accommodations": Projects like MCTC's are likely to be the first step in a long process.

The task force's eventual objectives on American campuses include the following, according to the website: permanent Muslim prayer spaces, ritual washing facilities, separate food and housing for Muslim students, separate hours at athletic facilities for Muslim women, paid imams or religious counselors, and campus observance of Muslim holidays. The task force is already hailing "pioneering" successes. At Syracuse University in New York, for example, "Eid al Fitr is now an official university holiday," says an article featured on the website. "The entire university campus shuts down to mark the end of Ramadan." At Henry Ford Community College in Dearborn, Mich., "halal" food -- ritually slaughtered and permissible under Islamic law -- is marked by green stickers in the cafeteria and "staff are well-trained in handling practices."

At Georgetown University, Muslim women can live apart in housing that enables them to "sleep in an Islamic setting," as the website puts it. According to a student at the time the policy was adopted, the university housing office initially opposed the idea, on grounds that all freshman should have the experience of "living in dorms and dealing with different kinds of people." That might sound appealing, Muslim students told a reporter in an article featured on the website. But in their view, the reporter wrote, "learning to live with 'different kinds of people' " actually "causes more harm than good" for Muslims, because it requires them to live in an environment that "distracts them from their desire to become better Muslims, and even draw[s] weaker Muslims away from Islam."

In other words, what we will get from this process of multiculturalism is precisely the kind of "separate but equal" facilities struck down by the Supreme Court in Brown v Board of Education in 1954. These Muslim activists want to create a separate society within the United States for Muslims, and they want the US to provide them the facilities with which to create it. Separate dorms, separate cafeterias, Muslim-only physical-education classes -- they want a separate Muslim college at MCTC and everywhere else. It's self-initiated apartheid.

Forty years ago and more, we had segregationists insisting that different peoples could not live within the same area without dividing lines. They used the same excuses as multiculturalists do today, too; each culture feels more secure when they can exclude others. We heard it from white supremacists and from black separatists -- and we proved them wrong. We made sure that people knew America stood for peaceful integration and not for Balkanization, even for what seemed to be good reasons to some.

Now we have Muslims who want to reopen the argument in order to create a closed society for themselves within the US. We have no problem with Muslims who integrate into our society and become Americans in deed as well as in name. If Muslims want to open their own universities to ensure the proper exercise of their religion, well, that works too. But if Muslims want us to recreate the French banlieus and an homage to Jim Crow so they can get even more insular than they already are here in the US, then we need to put our foot down -- washed or unwashed -- and say, "Enough!"

We do not need religious apartheid at MCTC or any other public university or facility. If devout Muslims do not want to integrate into American society, then they need to find another place to live. Period.

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» The End Result Of Multiculturalism from NoisyRoom.net
Courtesy of Captain’s Quarters: Katherine Kersten follows up today on her column last week regarding the installation of foot-washing basins for Muslims at Minneapolis Community Technical College. Kersten digs deeper into the process by which M... [Read More]

Comments (46)

Posted by AMR [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 7:45 AM

I totally agree. We do not need the problems developing in Europe nor America as a salad bowl instead of a mixing bowl. Either work to become an American or leave. It's that simple but not PC.

Posted by MarkD [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 7:52 AM

Georgetown is a private school so they can do what they like. I find it pathetic that a Jesuit institution could stoop so low, but they have a legal right to do so. Public schools, on the other hand, do not.

ACLU?

Posted by hunter [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 8:06 AM

This is ridiculous. Growing up, my children were never allowed to sing Christmas songs at the school Christmas program, becuase that would have offended someone.
Not even traditional, ancient songs that simply show what people sang and sing in the tradition.
We are being played for fools by lefties atheists and moslems.

Posted by TokyoTom [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 8:23 AM

Ed, the best way for removijng this as an issue of public policy would be to end the public support for education - and leave the decisions of universities solely up to the market.

Otherwise, we've accommodated separatism in the Amish and Hasidic communities - are you suggesting they should all leave the US as well? And shall we shut down Miami?

Granted, this is a difficult issue, but I submit we are better off with some mild accommodations to Muslims in public schools and in mainstreaming them as best we can. Some of the things being discussed, such as Muslim food, are certainly not intrusive and do nothing for creating an apartheit system.

Posted by quickjustice [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 9:01 AM

This story exposes the depths to which multiculturalism already has dragged our society. All sorts of racial and religious groups already receive special accomodations from the government. Why not Muslims? The line you propose to draw, Ed, already has been breached.

Sandra Day O'Conner, and a majority of the Supreme Court, has ruled that ending racial and religious preferences will be O.K. in twenty-five years. This new Muslim initiative proves the folly of such timetables.

As new ethnic and religious groups arrive in America demanding special government benefits and privileges, O'Conner's timetable will recede, postponed again and again out of political expediency. It'll always be "twenty-five years" in the liberal playbook until we can end these pernicious practices.

Posted by Fight4TheRight [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 9:09 AM

Cap'n - excellent points made.

ToykoTom, I must disagree with your statement, " in mainstreaming them as best we can." It's my opinion that they do NOT WANT mainstreaming. On the contrary, I believe it is one of their core priniciples to convert non-believers , not conform to non-believers.

After viewing closely the current situation in Sweden (a country some of us may be 'connected' to more than others), I think it would be important for everyone to print out this piece by Cap'n Ed, put it in an envelope with today's date on it, slip it into a safe place, and pull it out in five years.I think there would be a tremendous amount of head shaking going on in 5 years as well as a smattering of " I told you so's."

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 9:12 AM

"It's self-initiated apartheid."

If only. It's more like extortion in order to make the rest of us pay for Muslim superiority, under an ever present, not-so-veiled threat of violence.

Fundamental Islam is fundamentally un-American. These people don't want equal treatment. They believe they are superior to the rest of us and that they tolerate us only for the time it takes, to take our money.

And they are presently a tiny minority. What happens when they get closer to a majority status, or become the majority? What other demands will they come up with, once they get political power?

Do Muslims have any respect whatsoever for our Constitution? Do they have any respect at all for our way of life? Do they have any respect, regard or tolerance for non-Muslims?

The answer is a resounding no. Why are they being given special treatment then?

Muslims should be given no special accommodations. If they don't like it, they can go back to whatever dung heap of a country they came here from.

There's a reason why Muslim countries are dung heaps and much of it has to do with Islam itself. Why allow them to bring its practice and it's associated problems here?


Posted by docjim505 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 9:27 AM

At Henry Ford Community College in Dearborn, Mich., "halal" food -- ritually slaughtered and permissible under Islamic law -- is marked by green stickers in the cafeteria and "staff are well-trained in handling practices."

Hmmm... Do they also have specially-labeled kosher food prepared by specially-trained staff to accomodate observant Jews? Do they only serve fish on Fridays to accomodate the observant Catholics? Do they cancel classes on Wednesday nights to accomodate observant Christians who attend services in the middle of the week?

At Georgetown University, Muslim women can live apart in housing that enables them to "sleep in an Islamic setting," as the website puts it. According to a student at the time the policy was adopted, the university housing office initially opposed the idea, on grounds that all freshman should have the experience of "living in dorms and dealing with different kinds of people." That might sound appealing, Muslim students told a reporter in an article featured on the website. But in their view, the reporter wrote, "learning to live with 'different kinds of people' " actually "causes more harm than good" for Muslims, because it requires them to live in an environment that "distracts them from their desire to become better Muslims, and even draw[s] weaker Muslims away from Islam."

Will Georgetown ban shorts and skirts for female students to avoid offending Muslims who can't stand seeing an unclothed (and unsubmissive) female? Will they arrange to have only Muslim professors teach Muslim students to avoid any chance of leading the poor dears off the straight and narrow? And what will they do if Sunni students object to a Shiia professor, and vice versa?

By the way, what is sleeping in an "Islamic setting"? Do they have men standing around ready to stone the women to death if they invite their boyfriend into the dorm (are Muslim girls even allowed to have boyfriends?) or have religious police ready to flog them if they show too much ankle?

The possibilities for even more idiocy are virtually limitless.

Where the hell are the so-called "moderate" Muslims in all of this? Is this how you want the people of your religion to be perceived: as a bunch of backwards, whining crybabies who not only refuse to learn to live in the dominant culture of this country but insist that the rest of us bend over backwards for them? It's not like we're insisting that Muslims convert to Christianity, Judaism, or atheism. It's not like we're insisting that they chow down on babybacks and pork 'n' beans in the cafeteria. It's not like we deny them the right to bow toward Mecca, or wear a burqa, or eat halal food, or whatever else it is that their religious customs and laws require.

But if they REALLY want a university that is all-Muslim, then let them do what the Mormons do with Brigham Young, or what the Catholics used to do with Notre Dame, or what the Protestants do with their religious colleges. Go start your own university where you can live in the 12th century if it winds your watch, but leave the rest of us alone.

Posted by TomTom [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 9:46 AM

We are simply seeing the latest effect of a slowly rising, inexorable tide that will ultimately destroy American society. The Muslim "community" is just the most obvious example. "Community" is a huge concept for the Left; the Left celebrates(another pet word) Community: the A-A community, the gay-lesbian-transgender community, the Hispanic community, etc., etc., etc. That this will lead to banlieus is incidental and OK. Heck, we've already got 'em: barrios e.g. Tucson; Dearborn. This assures that the Sharptons and Ellisons will have guaranteed pulpits. It is way too late for anything other than draconian remedies-viz. TokyoTom above, who doesn't seem to grasp that opting out only works for small groups like the Amish, who tolerate us, and we them .

The America we love has a widely metastatic cancer throughout its corpus and is dying. We deal with oncoming death first with denial, then anger and bargaining, finally acceptance.

Per the NYT recently, in the public schools of Elkhart, IN, 77 languages other than English are spoken! The most recent arrivals are from Darfur. I am not making this up. 77 communities in the making. In Elkhart, which is not exactly the Big Apple.

America is dying of its self-inflicted cancer. Highly toxic chemotherapy holds the only hope, but we are unwilling to risk its side effects, and might not survive anyway.

Posted by richard mcenroe [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:01 AM

Good. Set 'em aside where they're easier to find.

Posted by krm [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:07 AM

The US used to be the "melting pot" model, wherer one became an American (while keeping some trappings and traditions of one's ethnic and prior cultural heritage). The US was stronger for it.

It is now the "tossed salad" model, where people are not expected or required to assimilate. This model is long-term unsustainable. It creates and promotes factionalism and sets us on a course to collapse.

Posted by Fight4TheRight [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:08 AM

docjim505 and TomTom - Thank you for your terrific posts! Absolutely Dead On right!

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:23 AM

DocJim505:

“Hmmm... [Does Henry Ford Community College] also have specially-labeled kosher food prepared by specially-trained staff to accomodate observant Jews?” –DocJim

I looked on their website, and looked at the menu for the Fifty-one O One restaurant they link to, and I don’t see any kosher meals. I don’t see any Halal meals either. Upon searching their website, I see no evidence of the college offering any Halal meals at their cafeteria. They did have Halal pizza at one event, however. I don’t know where the author got this info from.

However, here are some Universities that do offer Kosher meals at least 14 times per week:

American University
Barnard College
Binghamton University
Boston University
Brown University
California Institute of Technology
Carnegie Mellon University
Cornell University
Franklin & Marshall College
Goucher College
Ithaca College
Johns Hopkins University
Macalester College
New York University
Oberlin College
Ohio State University
Pratt Institute
Princeton University
Stevens Institute of Technology
Syracuse University
Towson University
University at Albany
University of Connecticut
University of Florida
University of Hartford
University of Maryland, College Park
University of Massachusetts, Amherst
University of Michigan
University of New South Wales
University of Pittsburgh
University of Rochester
University of Sydney
University of Tulsa
University of Virginia
Vanderbilt University
Wesleyan University
Williams College
Yale University

I guess Jews are a “bunch of backwards, whining crybabies who not only refuse to learn to live in the dominant culture of this country but insist that the rest of us bend over backwards for them.”

The author mentions Georgetown. Here are some picture of Georgetowns chapels, most of them Catholic, one Protestant, and all very nice:

http://campusministry.georgetown.edu/chapels/chapels.html#main

They do, however, have a “prayer room” for Muslims:

http://campusministry.georgetown.edu/MuslimMinistry/muslim.html

They don’t bother putting a picture of this “room” on the website. It’s probably an 8 x 6 room in the basement. What more do we have to do for these people?!?

NoDonkey:
“And they are presently a tiny minority.”

There are nearly as many Muslims in this country as Jews, and I see accommodations for Jews on campuses everywhere. Maybe you don’t know this, because I doubt that you have ever been on a University campus, much less attended one, but the percentage of Muslims in Universities, unlike the general population, is certainly not a “tiny minority”. This is because they are, in general, much smarter than US citizens. On college campuses, it is the US citizens that are the minority, because our education system sucks, and it is mainly foreigners that are accepted into colleges. And then people like Tomtom talk about a "cancer" in our society, when it is brainpower from other nations that is keeping this country afloat. I work in a high tech industry, and 80% of the employees are foreign. If we only hired Americans, my field would be dead.

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:35 AM

"where people are not expected or required to assimilate."

Not really. Americans are expected and required to change their lives to accommodate each and every foreigner who chooses to forgo their worker's paradise or Islamic kingdom and grace us all with their diverse presence.

After all, we're the evil white people who stole the land from the Indians, enslaved the black man, developed the protocols of the Elders of Zion, yada, yada.

So a culture where women are treated as chattel, where the murder of "infidels" is celebrated, where Jews are hated, where they produce nothing of value to anyone other than the oil they find on the ground, is at least equal to our American culture, according to our liberal elitist intelligensia.


Posted by tomax7 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:38 AM

...remind me why we're fighting in the Middle East again...

Posted by Al_Maviva [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:41 AM

On college campuses, it is the US citizens that are the minority, because our education system sucks, and it is mainly foreigners that are accepted into colleges

Dave, that's a remarkably stupid and remarkably untrue comment. What part of the tech industry are you in? Kitchen tech?

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 10:53 AM

"There are nearly as many Muslims in this country as Jews, and I see accommodations for Jews on campuses everywhere. "

Really dave? Pointing fingers at the Jooooooooos? I obtained my undergrad at a State University and my Masters at a private University and somehow I missed all of the accommodations made for the Jooooooos! Didn't see one in six years. Those crafty Jooos! Didn't run across any Jewish dorms. Didn't get any kosher food in the cafeteria. Must have hidden them away.

"This is because they are, in general, much smarter than US citizens."

They are? Then why were they stupid enough to attend school here among us dumb Americans, instead of their own universities so they could be educated by brilliant and devout Muslims?

By the way, why don't you list all of the prestigious education institutions across the world, that are run by Muslims. I'll save you time - there aren't any.

"On college campuses, it is the US citizens that are the minority"

Really? Name one major American University where US citizens are in the minority. I'll save you time again - there aren't any.

"I work in a high tech industry, and 80% of the employees are foreign."

Thanks to our wonderful public schools, which I'm sure you love. How bright would these foreigners be, if instead of education they were forced into a left-wing, social-engineering re-education camp, where teaching the three Rs (much less science) is seen as uncool?

"If we only hired Americans, my field would be dead."

How about re-phrasing that to read, "if we only hired "Americans" like dave, my field would be dead."

Posted by naftali [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 11:09 AM

I recall reading a post at LGF, a primary source of course, listing Islamist strategies for commenting on websites. One of the strategies was for Muslims to take an American name, like...Dave, for instance.

Now to my real point. As a culture, we in the West haven't taken care to bolster our foundation--that is, to define our terms clearly. 'Freedom', universally agreed upon as good, is almost as universally vague. Each person has their own definition.

The Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, the writings of Adams and Madison--all of these should be read and debated from first grade (of course you write a kiddie version of these and have a kiddie discussion). But we haven't done that, and the Muslims are exploiting this weakness over and over again. They are pitting free exercise of religion against free speech, against free assembly, against the desire to end institutional bigotry. And they are winning virtually every conflict.

If we had taken the time to protect our philosophical and legal foundations this simple tactic wouldn't have a chance.

Posted by patrick neid [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 11:40 AM

articles such as these tend to make the blood boil for precisely one reason--we all know that they will be successful. our self hate/doubt runs so deep now that we would rather be dhimmi than champion our own culture. while the islamic culture has basically added nothing to civilized society these past 500 years what they have done is study, very closely, other societies weak points. in each country throughout europe and north america they have adapted their agenda to take over the host country through its legal framework--much like cancer cells. only australia seems to be proud of its own society and has started to read them the riot act led by their prime minister howard.

as to moderate muslims--they for the most part are in hiding or don't exist. there are now an estimated 100 million radical muslims in the world and they mean to take over. when the population of muslims reaches 5% in this country we will find ourselves in a permanent state of litigation--litigation that we will lose. why? because we want to lose......just like iraq, just like open borders. bin laden figured us out a long time ago.

short of divine intervention or a pogrom are we to believe that islam will reform itself? is that our hope? they already know what we have to offer and they reject it. their bible--the koran--is very explicit. they are not to interact or be true friends with infidels, jihad must be the goal of the day to install islamic law, sharia, wherever they are. islam is the state.

all i know for sure is this thing is going to get very ugly while it tears us apart.........

Posted by docjim505 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 11:43 AM

Gotta throw in with NoDonkey. I got my BS and MS degrees from a public university and I don't recall special consideration for Jews... or really anybody else.

As for a lack of Americans in the technical fields, I'm a chemist. Most of my classmates in undergrad and graduate school were Americans. We had a few Chinese in our class (who insisted in blowing the curve, by the way), but otherwise all the chemists to graduate with my class were dumb ol' Americans.

Now, in my job, we have a little more of a multicultural mix. There is a Burmese and a Canadian in the tech services lab, though QC is all-American. One of our sales people is a Muslim from India (who is married to an American-born Methodist). Our plant manager and a couple of the admin people are yankees.

Yep, if it wasn't for non-Americans, our industry would be, um, er, well, not a lot different than it is.

naftali wrote (April 16, 2007 11:09 AM):

The Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, the writings of Adams and Madison--all of these should be read and debated from first grade (of course you write a kiddie version of these and have a kiddie discussion).

Amen, brother! Our country and culture have many faults, but these are greatly outweighed by the ideals that underlay them. If we fail to teach our kids what it means to be an American, then why should they value that over being anything else?

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 12:18 PM

I have a Muslim colleague - he observes prayers and manages to wash his feet in the restroom sink.

Once these Muslim students join the workforce, are they going to expect the same "accommodations"?

If not, then why not assimilate them while they're attending school?

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 12:45 PM

Al Maviva
“What part of the tech industry are you in? Kitchen tech?”

I work in pharmaceutical research, and most of my coworkers are Asian and Indian (and an Iranian! Can you believe it? I’ve been working with her for three years, and she hasn’t blown herself up nor tried to convert me. She invites me to her house, sometimes makes me lunch, and is very nice to me in general, even though she knows I am an atheist. Weird, huh. Maybe she’s waiting for the perfect time to kill me). In my field, Americans are a minority. Pharmaceutical research is one of the few things America is still able to do, and it is done by foreigners.

NoDonkey:
“Then why were they stupid enough to attend school here among us dumb Americans, instead of their own universities so they could be educated by brilliant and devout Muslims?”

I said we have stupid citizens. Our Universities, however, are very good.

“Name one major American University where US citizens are in the minority. I'll save you time again - there aren't any.”

By minority, I mean verses all other nationalities combined. I’m sure you realized that. If so, have you heard of a school called “Harvard University”? They are 45% white (see page 9):

http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/current_facts/2006OnlineFactBook.pdf

Heard of the University of California at Berkeley? They are 30% white:

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/media/releases/2006/12/19_enroll_table.shtml

These are overall numbers. I was in the science college, where minorities make up an even higher percentage. Most of the Americans are enrolled in less difficult majors so they can concentrate on heavy drinking and looking for rich husbands. The minorities tend to be over-represented in the high tech areas.

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 1:07 PM

dave,

Wait a second, since when is "white" a nationality?

You wrote "On college campuses, it is the US citizens that are the minority".

In the next post you wrote: "They are 45% white." So you're conceding the fact that this has nothing to do with nationality, by cleverly switching "US citizen", with "white". Who do you think you're fooling on this.

"I said we have stupid citizens. Our Universities, however, are very good."

How do stupid citizens build good Universities? Do other countries have any stupid citizens, or just us?

"Most of the Americans are enrolled in less difficult majors so they can concentrate on heavy drinking and looking for rich husbands."

As opposed to Muslim countries, where they concentrate on Islamic studies and learning how to hate infidels. Which explains their roaring economies. Pardon me if I'd rather see students drinking and husband hunting. Fewer beheadings, you see.

I served in the First Gulf War, in Saudi Arabia. You know how the Saudis accommodated our religious practices?

They told us that we could not practice our religion. That was nice thanks to us for saving their worthless lives. They did, however, cease stoning adultresses to death, along with delaying some beheadings. So they did try.

Most Islamic countries are also just as charming when it comes to religious accommodations. What we see as tolerance, they see as weakness, don't you agree?

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 1:32 PM

NoDonkey:
Yes. My mistake. The thread is on multiculturalism, and I was thinking in those terms. I should not have written “US citizen”. My Iranian co-worker, who prays at work, has dual Iranian-US citizenship. Even though she is a US citizen, I still think she is an example of what this thread is about. My point is that the dominant culture in this society is underrepresented in universities and other cultures are overrepresented.

“How do stupid citizens build good Universities?”
Good Universities are not built by citizens as a whole, but are made up good teachers and good students. Both the teachers and students are heavily weighted with minorities respective to the overall population. Non-whites make our Universities good, not the fact that they are located in the US.

“Do other countries have any stupid citizens, or just us?”
All countries. I am talking about overall statistics. Think bell curve.

Posted by docjim505 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 1:37 PM

dave wrote (April 16, 2007 10:23 AM):

I guess Jews are a “bunch of backwards, whining crybabies who not only refuse to learn to live in the dominant culture of this country but insist that the rest of us bend over backwards for them.”

When Jews start demanding seperate dorms and special accomodations for their religion the way that some Muslims are doing, rest assured that I'll criticize them, too.

But my (limited) experience with Jews - and, for that matter, my rather broader experience with Muslims - is that they are not especially interested in setting themselves apart. Rather, they, like most people, tend to want to live and let live.

I'm not sure who's really to blame here: the Muslims who want to make a little caliphate on campus, or the white libs who want to build one for them in the name of making themselves look tolerant.

Now, dave does make a point I actually agree with (April 16, 2007 12:45 PM):

Most of the Americans are enrolled in less difficult majors so they can concentrate on heavy drinking and looking for rich husbands. The minorities tend to be over-represented in the high tech areas.

I don't know that non-Americans (as opposed to minorities) are "over-represented" in the sciences, mathematics and engineering, but I do believe that far too few Americans enter those fields. In my graduating class, we had (IIRC) about ten chemists and about three hundred (!) business majors. I find this situation to be deplorable.

Oh, I too knew an Iranian girl in college. Quite aside from being quite pleasant (we had a very informative talk about Islam one afternoon), she was an absolute doll-baby. Woof!

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 1:50 PM

"My point is that the dominant culture in this society is underrepresented in universities and other cultures are overrepresented."

I agree that it's overrepresented in certain colleges within universities, but not in universities as a whole.

For example, go to any law school and you'll find fewer minorities and even fewer foreign students.

"Non-whites make our Universities good, not the fact that they are located in the US."

Do you honestly believe that our university system, which is pretty much the tops in the world, has nothing to do with the freedom and the ideals that built this country?

If not, why do you believe they located here? Just a random happenstance?

Posted by miklej [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 2:09 PM

I am going to move to Saudi Arabia to attend college. I intend to demand a private christian chapel. They need to make fish available on fridays. I also demand a priest, a confessional, and Sunday services.

Think I'll have trouble?

Posted by TomTom [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 2:47 PM

I've had it with little ol' dave: "Non-whites make our universities good". Whew, what a pinhead, what a bigot.

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 3:09 PM

DocJim:
"When Jews start demanding seperate dorms and special accomodations for their religion the way that some Muslims are doing, rest assured that I'll criticize them, too."

Earlier, you said: "Do they also have specially-labeled kosher food prepared by specially-trained staff to accomodate observant Jews?"

I showed you that Jews clearly demand Kosher foods much more than Muslims demand Halal food. The University list I gave that serves Kosher food would be much longer if I included ones that serve it less than 14 times a week. Halal food, on the other hand, is not served anywhere, as far as I could find. So you ignore this and shift the focus to separate dorms. Why is it now OK to ask for separate food and not separate dorms? Asking for separate food is an expense and a bother. Asking for separate dorms is merely a matter of grouping people together who want to live together. Why are the requests now if different categories? Is it now OK for Muslims to ask for Halal food?

Posted by AMR [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 6:27 PM

This trend did not start with the Muslims. In 2000, when I took my twin boys to visit different colleges, we found that some had black only dorms, non drinkers dorms, dorms set aside for those with higher SATs and other "segregated" groups. At one school my sons could not room together because of the spread between their SATs. At the college I attended and those I visited in the mid 1960s I found none of these special accommodations. My college had a significant Jewish population and I do not remember any meals prepared for them or any other group. As I could usually juggle my class schedule, I normally worked in the kitchen of the school activity center for lunch, the only place to eat a meal on campus, and in the kitchen of the girl’s dorms during breakfast and dinner. Since my life experience up to that time was very WASP, any preferential treatment would have stood out for me. So, to me, the salad bowl mentality is now part and parcel of college America across the board.

Posted by docjim505 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 6:47 PM

Um, dave, the thrust of the Cap'n's post, the article he cited, and my own comments were about Muslims demanding preferential treatment (or at the very least campus officials are bending over backwards to give it to them).

Now, if you can find me cases where Jewish students are demanding kosher meals, or seperate dorms, or similar "accomodations" to those discussed in the article, again, I'll be happy to criticize them.

Personally, I don't recall either of the universities I attended (both public) having overt, in-your-face, special dietary accomodations for anybody. I was only in the dorms for the first two years, but I don't remember them being segregated other than by gender.

Or should I criticize women for having the nerve to sleep in non-coed dorms?

It's one thing to make reasonable accomodations, for example by providing low-sugar menu choices for people with diabetes or who simply want to try to lose weight. It's another to cave in to a militant, loud-mouthed minority or their guilt-ridden, PC enablers who seem intent on foisting their culture on everybody else rather than trying (as I wrote before) to live and let live.

But let me try to put this into context for you. Imagine that some group of nasty ol' homophobe bigot Christians demanded that the college bring in an ordained minister to publicly ask the Grace in the dining hall before every meal.

Somehow, I think you'd suddenly run smack-dab out of tolerance and demand that the college tell that group of Bible-thumpers to take their religious bigotry and shove it.

For what it's worth, I don't think such a request is reasonable, and I'm a Christian.

Posted by conservative democrat [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 9:05 PM

Doc-jim, even though we are miles apart politically, you sir had great posts on this subject, especially your first one. Hat tip to you.

Posted by unclesmrgol [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 16, 2007 11:42 PM

Actually, from a libertarian standpoint, the Muslims are right. It's their vehicles, and the state and city are treating them unfairly by:

a) levying a heavy tax on their right to ferry paying passengers across the grid.

b) stating that, as a consequence of that tax, the interior of their vehicle is now a public accomodation and requiring that they carry, within said vehicle, people whose personal habits disgust them.

The laws being pushed here are the same ones which force a landlord to rent their private property to someone whose lifestyle is personally repugnant to the landlord.

I believe that a private businessperson should not be required to make contracts with anyone other than those whom they wish. If such conduct causes the businessperson to lose a sale, so be it -- but the state should not step in and say that, because they refused to sell to one person, they should not be permitted to sell to anyone else.

It's pretty easy to stick it in the eye of these Muslim cabbies, but hard to see that the same finger is simultaneously being stuck in your own eye.

Posted by andy phx [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 5:47 AM

OK. FIRST OF ALL. fuck that lefty bullshit. i am a lefty. if this school is funded by tax-payer dollars then, NO, IT'S TOTALLY WRONG!! look, contrary to gop talking points, us so-called liberals want nothing to do with 'state sponsored' religion. if the merits of this article are correct then this public funded college is violating the separation of church and state and that is TOTALLY unacceptable!! WE are not 'offended' by religion by offended by those that want to legislate their religion. get it right, ok!

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 8:00 AM

Docjim505:
“Now, if you can find me cases where Jewish students are demanding kosher meals…I'll be happy to criticize them.”

I did. I gave you the list above. If you want to include Universities that serve Kosher meals one to 12 times a week (the above list serve them 14 to 21 times a week), then you can include these colleges:

Babson College
Bergen Community College
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
City College of San Francisco
Cleveland State University
Columbia University
CUNY, Baruch College
CUNY, City College
CUNY, College of Staten Island
Cuyahoga Community College
Drake University
Duke University
Fairleigh Dickinson University - Metropolitan Campus
Florida Atlantic University
Framingham State College
Golden Gate University
Harvard University & Radcliffe College
Hobart and William Smith Colleges
Hofstra University
Indiana University
John Carroll University
Kean University
Loyola Marymount University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Northeastern University
Northwestern University
Ramapo College
San Francisco Conservatory of Music
Santa Barbara City College
Skidmore College
Smith College
Stanford University
Stony Brook University
SUNY Rockland Community College
The College of New Jersey
Trinity College
Tulane University and Newcomb College
UC Hastings College of Law
University at Buffalo
University of Arizona
University of California, Berkeley
University of California, Davis
University of California, Riverside
University of California, San Francisco
University of California, Santa Barbara
University of Illinois at Urbana, Champaign
University of Memphis
University of Oklahoma
University of Pennsylvania
University of Richmond
University of Saskatchewan
University of Southern California
University of Tennessee, Knoxville
University of Texas, Austin
University of Toronto
University of Waterloo
University of Wisconsin, Madison
Washington University
Wayne State University
Wilfrid Laurier University
William Paterson University

If you want to check my lists, go here:

http://www.hillel.org/HillelApps/JLOC/Search.aspx

So do you think it is reasonable for Jewish students to demand, and receive, Kosher meals at nearly 100 Universities in the US? If you don’t agree, why don’t you seem as eager to criticize Jewish students? Why doesn't the Captain start a thread on Jewish students demands for Kosher meals? You bring up the idea of Christians bringing in a minister to campus. This is already the case. Nearly all Universities see to it that there are beautiful Christian churches on campus. These churches are staffed with ministers. I showed how Georgetown has 8 Christian churches. What do you think of that? Georgetown also has a “room” somewhere for Muslims to pray. I suppose you would like to ignore the 8 beautiful ornate Christian churches and complain that Muslim are “demanding” a room to pray in.

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 8:46 AM

DocJim:
Look up The College of New Jersey. It is a public college. With only 420 Jewish students (6.4% of the total), they are "demanding" Kosher meals. What is your opinion?

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 9:02 AM

Docjim:
At the College of New Jersey, a small college, they have a Jewish Student Union and their "...religious activities include Friday night Kosher Shabbat dinners and services, Havdalah Services, Saturday morning services, Sukkah Building and prayers on campus, Kristalnacht Commemoration Program, lighting of campus Menorah and prayers, Tu B'Shevat Celebration, Passover Seders, Holocaust speakers, and a Holocaust Remembrance Day Program...In addition every March, to commemorate Jewish Awareness Month, programming is greatly increased with to at least 3 events per week including a keynote speaker, a family Shabbat Dinner and service, a campus-wide community service project, social activities, and other campus-wide programs. All activities throughout the year are free of charge and there is no charge to join the Jewish Student Union."

What do you think?

Posted by docjim505 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 11:15 AM

dave,

My attention was drawn from this post by what happened in Blacksburg yesterday.

As to what I think:

1. You're an anti-Semite

2. I don't like Jewish Student Centers any more than I like African-American Student Centers, Latino Student Centers, Women's Student Centers, etc, etc. I'm in the minority: such can be found on most campuses around the country. But since such exist, then everybody ought to have their shot.

3. When the Jewish students demand seperate sleeping accomodations or ubiquitous public facilities to practice their religion, call me back. Note: I see no problem with a college making space available for Muslim religious purposes, just as I don't see a problem making space available for Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, pagan, or other religious purposes.

"If you want to have a prayer meeting every week, go to the admin building and see what classrooms or auditoriums are available."

4. As I said before: It's one thing to make reasonable accomodations, for example by providing low-sugar menu choices for people with diabetes or who simply want to try to lose weight. It's another to cave in to a militant, loud-mouthed minority or their guilt-ridden, PC enablers who seem intent on foisting their culture on everybody else rather than trying (as I wrote before) to live and let live.

5. Based on what you say about the College of New Jersey, I believe I'd tell the militant, loud-mouth minority to get bent and either eat in their dorms, find a local kosher restaurant, or go home to mamma. I'd also ask them how all the other Jewish students who have doubtless attended CNJ managed to survive without either starving to death or becoming goy.

cd,

Thank you for the kind words.

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 12:16 PM

Actually, for kosher or halal food, if the university has the capacity, I don't have a problem with the university preparing it and instituting a surcharge for it, to cover any extra expenses.

That's a whole lot different than completely reconfiguring a restroom, to install something that only a very small group of people would even use.

Target has small plastic basins that cost a whole $2 to purchase. Filling/emptying a basin is not an unreasonable expectation.

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 12:58 PM

Docjim505:
“1. You're an anti-Semite”

If the definition of anti-Semite is criticizing Israel, I am. My Jewish Mother in law, however, does not agree with you.

“But since such exist, then everybody ought to have their shot.”
The why are you posting here?

“When the Jewish students demand seperate sleeping accomodations or ubiquitous public facilities to practice their religion, call me back.”
They are not asking for “ubiquitous public facilities to practice their religion.” They may ask for one space, but that does not meet the definition of “ubiquitous”. The only religion receiving “ubiquitous” facilities are Christians, like having 8 beautiful chapels on one campus. As someone else on this thread already noted, different groups (religious, athletic, fraternities, etc), have been asking for and getting separate sleeping accommodations for a long time. Why is it only a problem when Muslims ask for the same thing?

“Based on what you say about the College of New Jersey, I believe I'd tell the militant, loud-mouth minority to get bent and either eat in their dorms, find a local kosher restaurant, or go home to mamma.”

You are an anti-Semite!! I am calling the anti-defamation league!! You’re in trouble, buddy!

In my opinion, I don’t see any problem with Jews asking for, and getting, Kosher food. Even at a public school, students are paying tens of thousands of dollars to go to school, and in a practical sense often need to spend 24 hours a day on campus. As long as the expense and inconvenience are not excessive, I do see any reason not to supply any student with what they need in order to live comfortably while on campus. If college were free, like in Germany or Cuba, I might feel a little differently. But students are giving the Universities plenty of money.

NoDonkey:
“Target has small plastic basins that cost a whole $2 to purchase. Filling/emptying a basin is not an unreasonable expectation.”

Maybe. But even if there are only 100 Muslim at a given University, they are still contributing as a group maybe a million dollars a year to the school. I could put in a special sink for a few hundred bucks. I do not think that is a big deal. Providing Kosher meals to the entire student body costs more than two dollars. So what.

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 1:27 PM

"I could put in a special sink for a few hundred bucks."

You could? I wish you worked around here! I've hired some handymen who I thought were cheap.

But that's assuming there is space for it. Most restrooms I've seen, don't have a whole lot of empty space. That's also assuming the extra space has some sort of access to the water supply.

"I do not think that is a big deal. Providing Kosher meals to the entire student body costs more than two dollars."

I don't think it's that huge of an issue either, but where does it stop? And what are these students going to do if they find employment here? My colleague uses a basin to wash his feet and somehow, he's managed to survive/fulfill his religious obligation.

"Providing Kosher meals to the entire student body costs more than two dollars."

Sure, but if that's what a school is doing, it must be in Israel, because I don't believe we have any schools here w/100% Jewish enrollment.

And students pay for the food they consume. They don't pay for extra contraptions in the restrooms.

How about asking the Muslim students to fund the foot washing thingies? Maybe they can sell halal food to raise the money. I for one, love all Middle Eastern food (Jewish and Arab, haven't tried Persian but there's probably a place here in DC).

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 1:46 PM

NoDonkey:
"My colleague uses a basin to wash his feet and somehow, he's managed to survive/fulfill his religious obligation. "

I see a difference between the workplace and a campus. You pay large sums of money to be on campus, and are usually there 24 hours a day. To me that is different than a workplace where you are there for 8 hours and are being paid to be there. There is much more of a legitimate need and right to have your needs be catered to in a campus setting.


"How about asking the Muslim students to fund the foot washing thingies?"
I think you are being too careful about making responsible parties pay for things, and in a situation that is rather trivial. I have to pay for asshole/aggresive/drunk drivers through my insurance. I have no kids and have to pay for all my coworkers maternity leaves without getting the benefit myslelf. In fact, I have to pay for public schools as well, and do no take advantage of that either. So what. We live in a society, and I think we should try and treat each other well, even if they are the "other" and even if we do not personally take advantage of every societal benefit. (Also, lots of people don't go to parks and still have to pay for them). The issue of this thread is trivial compared to many other analagous situations that can be brought up, but the only reason people are getting worked up about this is because it concerns Muslims, and people here think Mulsims=Terrorists due to obvious racism. But you can't admit it. I can admit my racism. I have a prejudice against the white/USrael culture/people (even though I am a white American) because of what what the USrael leaders do in the world. At least I am aware of it and try and correct it. Most of the time I realize that the leaders are the problem and most citizens are simply brainwashed. Most people on this thread, however, will never get past "Muslim=Terrorist".

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 2:12 PM

dave, I would submit that universities have enough to worry about (witness what happened at VA Tech), than having to respond to each and every request, by small groups for just one more special treatment or accommodation.

Limited to the footwashing sink, your point is not "unreasonable, but these types of requests are getting more and more numerous.

Personally, if I moved to a foreign country, I wouldn't think of asking people to change something just for me or my religion. Doesn't it say something about our country that these Muslims feel safe enough to ask for something like this?

Wouldn't it be better to eventually grow away from people demanding individual accommodations, and for people to just get along with basic human needs? Where does it end?

"people here think Mulsims=Terrorists due to obvious racism."

Well, there are numerous other reasons people here and in other countries equate Muslims with terrorists, possibly because of the vast numbers of people Muslim terrorists have murdered in the name of Islam.

I couldn't possibly care less if people want to worship lawn ornaments, as long as they're not killing people in the name of said lawn ornament.

Muslims are killing people in the name of Islam and if most of the leaders/followers of Islam are outraged by that, they are having a difficult time communicating it to those of us who are not Muslim.

If Roman Catholics were murdering thousands of people a year in the name of the Church and the Pope refused to condemn it, you can bet people would hate Catholics (not that a lot of people don't already).

"I have a prejudice against the white/USrael culture/people (even though I am a white American) because of what what the USrael leaders do in the world."

I don't know what to say to that. Hopefully, your prejudice is limited to thoughts, feelings and postings, rather than actions.

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 2:35 PM

NoDonkey:
"If Roman Catholics were murdering thousands of people a year in the name of the Church"

I think you may be overestimating your figures. For example, the number of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians sine the beginning of 2006 is 13. In the same period, 340 Palestinians were killed by Israelis. You have a better chance of being killed by lightning than terrorism. And Palestinians are killing people in the name of ridding themselves of occupation.

Posted by NoDonkey [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 5:36 PM

Well dave, Muslims killed 3,000 on September 11th, and Muslims danced in the streets in Palestine.

I don't see Americans dancing in the streets when Palestinians die trying to kill Israelis.

And how many Israelis would the Palestinians kill, if the Palestinians had a chance? All of them.

Meanwhile, the Israelis have the capability of killing all the Palestinians (and justification as well), but do everything possible to limit civilian casualties.

Posted by dave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 17, 2007 10:32 PM

NoDonkey:
"Muslims danced in the streets in Palestine."

Israelis danced and high-fived each other as they watched the towers burn in person. Do you think we should bomb Israel for that?

“The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards.”

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34250,00.html
From ABC News:
“The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.”
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm

Five Israelis Detained for 'Puzzling Behavior' After WTC Tragedy., By: Melman, Yossi, Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, 87554917, Nov2001, Vol. 20, Issue 8
Database: Academic Search Premier
FIVE ISRAELIS DETAINED FOR 'PUZZLING BEHAVIOR' AFTER WTC TRAGEDY
Section: Special Report
FIVE ISRAELIS WHO HAD WORKED for a moving company based in New Jersey are being held in U.S. prisons for what the Federal Bureau of Investigation has described as "puzzling behavior" following the terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York last Tuesday. The five are expected to be deported sometime soon.
The families of the five, who asked that their names not be released, said that their sons had been questioned by the FBI for hours on end, had been kept in solitary confinement for three days, and had been humiliated, stripped of their clothes and blindfolded.
The mother of one of the young men explained the chain of events as she understands it to Ha'aretz:
She said that the five had worked for the company, which is owned by an Israeli, for between two months and two years. They had been arrested some four hours after the attack on the Twin Towers while filming the smoking skyline from the roof of their company's building, she said. It appears that they were spotted by one of the neighbors who called the police and the FBI.
The mother said that the families and friends of the five in Israel had known nothing of the men's whereabouts for a number of days.
"When they finally let my son make a phone call for the first time to a friend in the United States two days ago, he told him that he had been tortured by the FBI in a basement," the mother said. "He was stripped to his underwear; he was blindfolded and questioned for 14 hours. They thought that because he has citizenship of a European country as well as of Israel that he was working for the Mossad [Israel's secret service]."
Seven FBI agents later stormed the apartment of one of the Israelis, searched it and questioned his roommate. The Israeli owner of the company, who has U.S. citizenship, was also questioned. Both men were subsequently released.
The families here complained that the Israeli consulate in New York and the situation room set up by the Foreign Ministry there to locate missing Israelis had done nothing to help their sons. The Foreign Ministry told the families that the FBI had denied holding the five and that the consulate had chosen to believe the FBI, the mother said.
The five were transferred out of the FBI's facility on Saturday morning and are now being held in two prisons in New Jersey by the Immigration and Naturalization Services. They are charged with illegally residing in the United States and working there without permits.
The Foreign Ministry said in response that it had been informed by the consulate in New York that the FBI had arrested the five for "puzzling behavior." They are said to have had been caught video-taping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.
Meanwhile, the official representatives of the Palestinians are being ignored because they just don't know how to get the right kind of attention.
By Yossi Melman, Ha'aretz, Sept. 17, 2001
U.S. arrests of Israelis
a mystery

Most charged with immigration violations either have been deported or will be.


U.S. arrests of Israelis
a mystery

By DOUG SAUNDERS

With a report from Associated Press

Monday, December 17, 2001 – Print Edition, Page A7

LOS ANGELES -- U.S. officials have arrested, detained and questioned hundreds of people on vague suspicions of ties to terrorism since Sept. 11, but a few dozen cases are especially mysterious: They are Israelis, young and apparently Jewish, working in the United States on temporary visas and have little obvious connection to Islamic extremism.

The U.S. government has offered no explanation for the detentions, estimated to be as many as 60 in number, and some of them have begun speaking out in protest and asking courts to end their detention. But Washington appears to be treating them as palpable threats: Many remain in jail. Most have been charged with immigration violations, and either have been or will be deported.

Based on what the Israelis say about the questions they have been asked, federal officials appear to believe they are either Muslim extremists hiding behind false Israeli identities or spies working for the Mossad, Israel's intelligence agency.

If the latter is the case, it raises the possibility that Washington is using its antiterrorism campaign as an excuse to round up other groups of people it wants out. "They asked if I was spying on anybody," said Yaniv Hani, 22, who spent four weeks in custody after Sept. 11 and now faces charges from the Immigration and Naturalization Service for working with an improper visa. He said

Federal Bureau of Investigation officials asked him whether he was really Muslim before switching to questions about possible ties to Mossad. Mr. Hani worked for a number of years for Israel's military police.

Israel has protested the arrests. Mark Regev, a spokesman for the Israeli embassy in Washington, said the FBI has not contacted Israel about spying allegations, and that "not a single one has been charged with intelligence violations. It has all been visa violations."

Another possibility is that the FBI suspects the Israelis of taking part in a clandestine operation. A majority of those arrested were employees of a Florida company, Quality Sales, that hires vacationing Israeli youth to work at vending carts in U.S. shopping malls.

Thomas Dean, a lawyer for the company, acknowledged that the Israelis had been issued the wrong type of visa, since they were tourists on working vacations rather than permanent workers.

However, he noted that their cases had all been labelled "special interest" by the INS, a new designation indicating that they are suspects in the antiterrorism campaign, not regular immigration violators.

"Clearly that was what the FBI, from the very beginning, was very interested in talking about -- their activity in the Israeli military or any kind of intelligence agency."

(Israel does have a history of spying against the United States, even though the two nations are officially allies. The most famous case is that of Jonathan Pollard, a U.S. military official convicted in 1987 of espionage for stealing top U.S. military secrets on behalf of Israel.)

Also, five of the Israelis came to the FBI's attention after they were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture.

Steven Noah Gordon, a lawyer for the five, told The New York Times that their behaviour may have been offensive, but said the behaviour was not criminal -- "and they were being treated as if it was." The five have since been deported.

U.S. officials have offered no explanation for the arrests, even to immigration judges. Last month, when the INS asked that bail be denied to 11 of the Israelis, a judge rejected the request, saying the government had been less than forthcoming with evidence.

"Although the [INS] alleges that these cases are 'special,' it has failed to present any credible evidence of the basis for this finding," Judge Elizabeth Hacker wrote. "The service has failed to submit any evidence of terrorist activity or of a threat to national security."

Copyright © 2001 Globe Interactive, a division of Bell Globemedia Publishing


Copyright 2001 North Jersey Media Group Inc., All Rights Reserved
The Record (Bergen County, NJ)
September 12, 2001 Wednesday Late
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. a08
LENGTH: 763 words

HEADLINE: FIVE MEN DETAINED AS SUSPECTED CONSPIRATORS;
MAPS CONNECT THEM TO ATTACK; SIMILAR VAN WASIN LIBERTY PARK

SOURCE: The Record

BYLINE: PAULO LIMA, Staff Writer

BODY:
About eight hours after terrorists struck Manhattan's tallest skyscrapers, police in Bergen County detained five men who they said were found carrying maps linking them to the blasts.

The five men, who were in a van stopped on Route 3 in East Rutherford around 4:30 p.m., were being questioned by police but had not been charged with any crime late Tuesday. The Bergen County Police bomb squad X-rayed packages found inside the van but did not find any explosives, authorities said.

However, sources close to the investigation said they found other evidence linking the men to the bombing plot.

"There are maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park. " Sources also said that bomb-sniffing dogs reacted as if they had detected explosives, although officers were unable to find anything. The FBI seized the van for further testing, authorities said.

Sources said the van was stopped as it headed east on Route 3, between the Hackensack River bridge and the Sheraton hotel. As a precaution, police shut down Route 3 traffic in both directions after the stop and evacuated a small roadside motel near the Sheraton.

Sources close to the investigation said the men said they were Israeli tourists, but police had not been able to confirm their identities. Authorities would not release their names.

East Rutherford officers stopped the van after the FBI's Newark Field Office broadcast an alert asking surrounding police departments to look for a white Chevrolet van, police said.

"We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side," said Bergen County Police Chief John Schmidig. "Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down. " The East Rutherford officers summoned the county police bomb squad, New Jersey state troopers, and FBI agents, who waited alongside the van as prosecutors from the U.S. Attorney's Office tried to obtain a warrant to search the van late Tuesday, Schmidig said.

By 10 p.m., members of the bomb squad were picking through the van and X-raying packages found inside, Schmidig said.

Sources said the FBI alert, known as a BOLO or "Be On Lookout," was sent out at 3:31 p.m. It read: "Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack. White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with 'Urban Moving Systems sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center.

"Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals. " FBI spokeswoman Sandra Carroll declined to comment on the incident late Tuesday.

State police Lt. Col. Barry W. Roberson confirmed the traffic stop at a late night news briefing at state police headquarters in Trenton.

He would not elaborate, however.

Business records show an Urban Moving Systems with offices on West 50th Street in Manhattan and on West 18th Street in Weehawken. Telephone messages left at the businesses Tuesday evening were not immediately returned.

Business records show the owner as Dominik Suter of Fair Lawn. A woman answering the telephone at Suter's home acknowledged he owned the company but refused to comment further. She also declined to identify herself.

It was not clear Tuesday whether the van stopped by police is related to Suter's company.

A business traveler staying at the Homestead Studio Suites Hotel said she watched state troopers drive the suspects away in a procession of state police cars about 5 p.m. The woman, who asked not to be identified, said the people detained appeared to be white men, but she could not give more details. About 5:30 p.m., police evacuated the hotel without offering guests an explanation.

"First, they told us we could hang out in the lobby, but then they told us we had to leave," the traveler said.

At 10 p.m., the hotel guest said she could see at least two police officers searching through the van while a crowd of other officers kept their distance. Except for police vehicles and a tow truck, the service road beside Route 3 was empty, she said.

Staff Writer Wendy Ruderman contributed to this report. Staff Writer Paulo Lima's e-mail address is lima(at)northjersey.com

GRAPHIC: PHOTO - JAMES W. ANNESS / STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER - TRAGIC VIEW: Looking like a large smokestack billowing in the distance, the World Trade Center burns out of control as four men watch the tragedy from Jersey City just before the collapse of the north tower.