Ten Stroll Past Sexual Assault In St. Paul

Twin Cities residents now have to share a moment of shame with New York City. Forty years ago, Kitty Genovese screamed for help when being murdered, and her Big Apple neighbors didn’t lift a finger to help her — not even to dial the phone to call the police. Yesterday, police in St. Paul say that at least 10 people saw a sexual assault take place in their hallway but did nothing to stop it:

Although police say as many as 10 people witnessed a sexual assault in a St. Paul hallway, the suspect said he has no memory of what happened.
Rage Ibrahim, 25, said he blacked out from drinking too much alcohol. But he said he wouldn’t have committed rape. …
Surveillance video from a Highwood-area apartment hallway makes it clear that a sexual assault happened Tuesday, St. Paul police Cmdr. Shari Gray said.
Prosecutors charged Ibrahim, of St. Paul, on Thursday with first- and third-degree criminal sexual conduct.
From five to 10 people peeked out of their apartment doors to see what was happening. Some started walking down the hallway but retreated after witnessing the assault, Gray said, based on surveillance video she saw. None stopped the assault, she said.

Not only did the sexual assault take place in the hallway, where the neighbors could hear the screams and pleas for help, but the security camera video shows at least ten people watching the assault and doing nothing about it. One man claims he called the police when the woman beat on his door for rescue, prior to the assault, but the police say they have no record of his call. Someone else called to complain about two drunken people in the hallway, which put the complaint at the lowest response priority for the police. They arrive 40 minutes afterwards to find out that the woman had been sexually assaulted.
Why didn’t the neighbors do anything, except the one who complained about drunken clamor? The Pioneer Press notes that the residents in this apartment building are Somalis. Omar Jamal, from the Somali Justice Advocacy Center, says Somalis are used to mistrusting the police and are conditioned to say nothing. Could it also be related to their religious upbringing, which tends to blame women for sexual assaults? It makes at least as much sense as the Somali community fleeing halfway around the world to find freedom, then believing they’re living in a police state after living here for a while.
Omar has a history of blaming the victim himself, as this Star Tribune article notes (via Michelle Malkin):

Ahmed beat his wife so badly last summer in her St. Paul apartment that she is in a prison of her own: She has permanent brain damage and scars. She will never be able to care for her 17-month-old son because she will never be able to care for herself.
Advocates and law enforcement authorities say domestic violence often is a taboo topic in the male-dominated Somali community. Women are strongly discouraged from reporting it, said Omar Jamal of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center.
There is a “deep mistrust in the system,” he said. “This case created bad disagreement in the community. Most of the men didn’t like that the women [took the case] this far.”

It’s the women who created the “bad disagreement” by insisting that a man who literally beat his wife senseless got prosecuted for the crime. It goes a long way to understanding why Rage Ibrahim could rape a woman in a hallway while fellow Somalis strolled past and never worried about being caught or even challenged. People like Omar Jamal have his back, and so do Rage’s neighbors.
UPDATE: It should be noted that Genovese’s neighbors didn’t have to be Muslims or immigrants to ignore her 40 years ago.
UPDATE II: I’m going to reiterate what I wrote in the comments — if Omar Jamal wants to argue that their cultural development keeps Somalis from protecting women from being raped in hallways or even reporting it to the police, then he has made the Somali culture the point of argument, not me.
All I’m saying is that if Somalis in St Paul are culturally inclined to ignore rapes occurring right before their eyes, which part of that culture is more likely to be the issue here? Somehow I doubt it’s the police in Somalia.

52 thoughts on “Ten Stroll Past Sexual Assault In St. Paul”

  1. I’m not so sure it mattered who the neighbors were. We’ve created a culture of dependency. We tell people: Don’t take matters into your own hands. Let the authorities deal with it.
    They did.

  2. Let’s say that somebody DID do something, like pull a gun on the perp or even (gasp!) shoot the son of a bitch to make him stop. What then? Given the legal environment in this country, there’s a good chance the Good Samaritan (or should we call him a vigilante?) would be up on charges or at the very least find himself being sued by the perp or his survivors.
    Michelle comments extensively about the perp’s religion and ethnic background. Personally, I don’t really care about those things: there are monsters among EVERY race, religion and creed. Let me also say that a 147gr JHP is an equal opportunity monster-stopper.

  3. This, Ladies and Gentlemen, is exactly why we need to prevent immigration without assimilation. If a man or woman wants to come here, they should be ready to become American. Not Somali-American, etc… I can’t promise you that an apartment building full of Americans would have definitely done any better, but I can promise you that the odds of someone helping the woman would be dramatically higher. Your shame, people of St. Paul, is our shame as Americans and that has more to do with letting these folks in, without them assimilating our culture, as it does with the events themselves.
    Sincerely,
    William

  4. This, Ladies and Gentlemen, is exactly why we need to prevent immigration without assimilation. If a man or woman wants to come here, they should be ready to become American. Not Somali-American, etc… I can’t promise you that an apartment building full of Americans would have definitely done any better, but I can promise you that the odds of someone helping the woman would be dramatically higher. Your shame, people of St. Paul, is our shame as Americans and that has more to do with letting these folks in, without them assimilating our culture, as it does with the events themselves.
    Sincerely,
    William

  5. Please accept my apologies for the double post. If it can be corrected, please do so. I will watch my stuttering return finger in the future.
    Thank you,
    William

  6. Given this is one of the very liberal states like Oregon, the DA and the police would probably put more effort into prosecuting male children as sexual predators and anyone who acted to protect this woman than the person who committed the act. I can see the headlines in the Star. “Man prosecuted for hurting alledged rapist.” Courts awards alledged rapist $5 Million for pain and suffering at the hands of vigilanty.”
    Sad is it not that the average citizen has to has so much distrust for the legal system in this country.

  7. Looks like another occasion to celebrate diversity to me! Isn’t that the most important thing? As long as we are diverse, what else matters?
    Who are we to impart are Western values to the Somali community? After all, all cultures are equal, except American culture which is the worst in history. To judge this incident only reveals our nativism and narrow mindedness.
    Seriously, this is the future of America, unassimilated minority groups who live outside the law. Get used to it, folks.

  8. From the article:
    “The only system they know (from Somalia) is a military, totalitarian government that tortures and executes people,” he said. “Their understanding is a system that oppresses and that kills. People have no rights. They are used to keeping quiet and not saying anything.”
    Why do they think America is like Somalia, did not they come here to escape this? With this attitude they will simply recreate the hell hole they fled from right here in Minnesota. Is this what we want?

  9. It makes at least as much sense as the Somali community fleeing halfway around the world to find freedom…
    I’m not sure they came here to find freedom, unless it’s freedom to live exactly as they lived in their own countries except without the fear of getting killed in the tribal warfare that passes for normal life over there.
    I think that’s how many immigrant communities see the USA, a place to come and work and not get killed and be exactly who and what you were wherever you came from. I don’t think they want to be Americans. They want to be Somalis (or whoever) living in America. It’s safer here (well unless you’re a woman getting raped in a hallway while people cluster around a monitor to watch as the nightly entertainment)and because you can be left alone to do whatever you want, since we are sensitive to your cultural identity.

  10. Can we assume that Mr. Rage Ibrahim is also a Muslim? In which case, he’ll probably simply say there is no such thing as rape, and if there was, it was consensual, and if it wasn’t consensual then she’s a slut and deserved it.
    Can someone please ask the church groups who sponsor these people coming into our country WHY they don’t keep better track of them? Or choose other more deserving (and human) refugees? Or is it simply the case that all political refugees seeking asylum are so traumatized that they should be considered animals and treated as such?
    Iraqi’s need to understand that one reason we’re so very leery about letting any of them into America is because of the behavior of groups like these Somali’s and their cab-driving brethren.

  11. I beseech you, Captain. Please, could we stop with the silly “red meat” already, and get back to some meaningful and thoughtful issues?
    For the past week or two you’ve offered up almost nothing but wall-to-wall race baiting, Dem-bashing, general snark and the shrillest form of partisanship. It’s like Captain Ed went on holidays and one of the odious Kos Kids took over, changing lal the R’s to D’s.
    As one poster commented yesterday, there’s not much on offer here anymore that’s of interest to rational conservatives.
    This used to be the best place in town to get a satisfying meal. I’m hoping the menu improves.

  12. To blame this reaction on a particular culture is probably the most obnoxious thing I have ever seen on this site. And that says a lot. This is how all people, regardles of culture, race or religion, react to this type of situation, including precious Americans. There are countless psychological studies that show this, or you can simply watch stories about this type of behaviour on 60 minutes. After posting on this blog for quite a while, I’ve become pretty immune to pathetic, zenophobic, racist comments, but even this one shocked me.

  13. filistro,
    A woman was raped while a number of people watched or just shut their doors. Perhaps this isn’t quite as important as tax policy, the war in Iraq, or Britney Spears’ latest escapade, but it seems to me to be somewhat worthy of comment for several reasons:
    1. What does it say about our society that people will simply close their eyes – or stand around and watch – while a horrible crime is being committed? Naturally, as a rightwing Christian male homophobe bigot chauvinist neocon, I don’t care what happens to women (especially women of color), but I vaguely understand why other people might (/sarcasm).
    2. As a firm believer in the Second Amendment, I see this outrage as an example of why citizens, especially women, should give serious consideration to arming themselves. The police cannot protect you 24/7, and the courts cannot (or will not) keep monsters off the streets.
    3. When immigrants come to America, what should they be told about our laws and customs when they arrive? What standards should they be held to? What affect, if any, should episodes like this have on the immigration debate? As a personal matter, I don’t think it should have much bearing; it’s wrong to use the crimes committed by a few immigrants as a “bloody shirt” to wave in the fight against illegal immigration.
    4. Is the rapist going to get a pass because of his color and / or religion? How many people will explain this outrage away with a silent, “What can you expect from THOSE people?” or an overt, “It’s his culture, and who are WE to judge?”
    5. Is our justice system doing a good job of arresting, prosecuting and punishing criminals like this? It may be that the perp has committed crimes against women before; if so, why was he not in prison? We read with nauseating regularity of crimes committed by men who have been in and out of the prison system, going from bad to worse until the finally commit a REAL outrage, and we wonder why the hell somebody like that was on the streets in the first place.
    6. Finally, there is the never-ending argument, touched on by Cybrludite: for dealing with monsters, which is best? 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, or .38 Special +P? Semi-auto or revolver? “Fast ‘n’ light” or “Slow ‘n’ heavy”?
    I’m sorry that you feel the need to close your eyes, put your hands over your ears, stamp your feet and sing “Mary Had a Little Lamb” at the top of your voice when things like this happen. Possibly you can find a blog where they only talk about ponies, rainbows, pretty flowers, why George Bush is a lying idiot and other happy topics so you’ll feel better.

  14. Last summer I watched a family stroll by at our local amusement park. The father and son were dressed in shorts and tank tops with flip flops. The female was dressed in a head-to-toe burka. The temperature was 103 F. If you dressed a dog in a burka that day, you’d be arrested for animal cruelty.
    But since the creature in the burka was a Muslim female, the police, the bystanders, turned their eyes away. We turn our eyes away from Muslim females who are raped, who are mutilated, who are beaten to a pulp, just because of their religion.
    This has to end. This country does NOT let people practice whatever religion they choose — Mormons are not allowed to practice polygamy. Satanists cannot sacrifice babies. Nazis can dress up in uniforms and march, but they aren’t allowed to gas Jews.
    The Muslims in this country must follow the laws of this country, which includes women having equal protection under the law, or they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

  15. Dave,
    This is how women are treated in the Muslim world.
    That they move here and continue to engage in this behavior IS a legitimate topic of discussion.
    Why don’t they assimilate?
    Why don’t they trust the police? After all the St Paul police department is not the Gestapo.
    If we don’t talk about things because the discussion may focus on one group and its behavior, the PC will have triumphed, while women such as this victim will continue to suffer.

  16. “As one poster commented yesterday, there’s not much on offer here anymore that’s of interest to rational conservatives.”
    The blog owner doesn’t need me defending him but he’s commented before that he writes about what interests him, not necessarily what interests the rest of us. Sometimes he writes about things I have no interest in, for example. I think the answer to that is that I can go and start my own blog, right? And so can anyone else who finds CQ is lacking in some way (not that I’m encouraging this!).
    As to blaming the rape on someone’s culture and how horrifying that we would do so (comment by another poster), the Somali spokesman brought it up to justify why “his” people would do nothing in the face of this rape. So if anyone’s “pathetic, zenophobic, racist” I guess it would be him.

  17. I’ll admit I knew this post would be provocative. However if Omar Jamal wants to argue that their cultural development keeps Somalis from protecting women from being raped in hallways or even reporting it to the police, then he has made the Somali culture the point of argument, not me. All I’m saying is that if Somalis in St Paul are culturally inclined to ignore rapes occurring right before their eyes, which part of that culture is more likely to be the issue here? Somehow I doubt it’s the police in Somalia.

  18. I don’t know anything about what happened in St. Paul yesterday, but there is at least some reason to doubt the traditional story of what happened to Kitty Genovese in 1964. See the following link for details:
    http://www.oldkewgardens.com/kitty_genovese-001.html
    It wouldn’t surprise me if today’s story is as unreliable as the media reports in 1964.

  19. Okay, doc. You know I love talking to you… I get sucked in every time. (I especially can’t resist when you use numerical bullet points 🙂
    So what issues are we discussing here?
    Societal reluctance to get involved when witnessing violent crime? The need for women to arm themselves in self-defence? Assimiliation? The inequities of the justice system? The pros and cons of rape shield laws? Capital punishment as deterrent?
    All are great topics for a lively debate. Why then did the questions need to be framed by the blogger in such a “red meat” and shockingly racist manner? It seems utterly gratuitous to me…. and highly unlikley to give rise to thoughtful discussion.
    Note: if it weren’t for the final sentence in your number 3.) above, I would not have responded. But the opinion you expressed there is admirable, and worthy in itself of a courteous reply.

  20. Question to the more intelligent readers here (dave and filisto may Stand Down): I take it ‘red meat’ is some new code phrase the Left is using to taint the arguments of anyone they disagree with?

  21. Dr J.
    Call me old fashioned, I think 1911 was a very good year (230 grain).
    The shyster is an acknowledged coward. The fact that he would have closed his door on the woman too…proves that race has nothing to do with it.
    There’s no doubt in my mind what this swabbie would have done. Even though our system is broken (mostly due to efforts by the shyster and his commie pals) this swabbie still goes by the philosophy “better to be judged by 12 than carried by six”.
    The day it’s better to turn your head than help a woman in this situation is the day it’s time to give up on our society. Unfortunately for cowards like the shyster…when this swabbie “gives up” on our society, his remedy won’t be to lock himself up in the house and wait for judgment day. The limp-wrist, wannabe tyrant commies, shysters and anarchists think they want anarchy. I’ve seen anarchy…they couldn’t handle anarchy.

  22. John:
    “This is how women are treated in the Muslim world.”
    Yes. We are so lucky to live in a rape free Christian society.
    Maybe people may remember this recent video of a 91 year old getting the shit beat out of him:
    video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4300911664231226986&q=%22leonard+sims%22&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
    The 5 bystanders who watched and did nothing must have been Somali Muslims, I guess.

  23. Otter:
    “They weren’t good Christians, either, dave.”
    Yes. I one study after another on the bystander effect, Social Psychologists repeatedly find that for some reason, Christians are immune to it, and Somali Muslims are particularly prone to it. It’s very interesting.

  24. The shyster knows he would have closed his door and done nothing about the rape in progress. I know (and I think the shyster knows too) that I would have brought Mr. 1911 out and the two of us would have ruined the rapist’s whole day…
    To make himself feel better about himself…you know it must be very depressing to know that you are a coward…he’ll break out study after study “proving” that everyone else is a “bystander” and coward just like him…
    Too bad for the shyster that deep down…deep, deep down. Down where the sun never shines…the shyster knows that many people are not “bystanders” and cowards like he is…
    It is this thought that depresses the little shyster. It is not just the fact that he knows he’s a coward. It’s the fact that he knows that others are not cowards…that’s what really hurts him…and I think it colors his whole outlook on life. Really is depressing.

  25. Many thanks to the management for formatting and layout changes which allow the reader to see who posted before having to read through the post to get to the name.
    Filistro is now on my “skim through at warp speed because he’s an idiot troll” ignore list.
    sighing in satisfaction …

  26. The following quotes are from “A Psychological Approach to Understanding the Legal Basis of the No Duty to Rescue Rule” by David N. Kelly, BYU Journal of Public Law; 2000, Vol. 14 Issue 2, p271.
    “In the United States, there is generally no legal duty to rescue.”
    (See Saul Levmore, Waiting for Rescue: An Essay on the Evolution and Incentive Structure of the Law of Affirmative Obligations, 72 VA. L. REV. 879 (1986).)
    “Many other countries around the world imposes a duty to rescue. In Europe, the duty is widespread.”
    (See Thomas v. Williams, 124 S.E.2d at 434)
    So in the US, what the bystanders did here is not illegal. In most other countries, it would be illegal. So what does it say about a culture who allows its citizens to do nothing in a situation like this without punishment?

  27. Nobody said he wasn’t a “clever” little shyster. Look how quickly he can find more studies to “prove” that he isn’t the only one who is a coward. Very depressing indeed.

  28. Personally, if it was me I would give the perp the Louisville slugger treatment but thats just me.
    These kinds of things (unreported violent crimes) happen in all communities but they more likely to happen in immigrant communities due to their distrust of local authorities. The fact that they live in an apartment building in close proximity to one another contributes as well.
    In regards to Muslims, one has to living in fantasy land (that would be you Dave) to think that they treat woman the same as women are treated in western society. From honor killings to denying them education, forcing them to wear burkas or the hajib, they are basically locked in their houses and expected to service their males with no complaints. The brutal fact is that rape is much more socially acceptable in Muslim societies because women are viewed as slaves. The fact that one half of the population is mostly uneducated and basically enslaved is one of the primary reasons Muslim society is so screwed up.

  29. Dave,
    If you are comparing the acceptance of violence to the elderly and women in this country to the sordid existence of women in Muslim countries, you are living in a fantasy world.
    That so many of us are upset about this speaks well of our culture; this item would never make the news in Arabia or Somolia.

  30. Tim,
    If there’s one thing I learned from many years of participation in organized, competitive sports (“retired” as junior Big Ten wrestler [never went beak to beak with CE in MN though]) it’s this: No matter how good you are (or think you are) on any given day there’s always someone who can beat you…
    Now I’m over 45 years old. Broken down put away wet…and only pushin the scales at less than 170 lbs (soaking wet). Still, I’ll bet there’s an even chance I could take the Louisville away from you. I agree that clubbing a rapist’s noggin with the sweet spot of a L.S. could be satisfying in and of itself…I’d recommend that for the sake of the rape victim, you should go with a little more firepower.

  31. dave,
    When are you going to say that “Israelis do it to”? You’re slipping…
    filistro,
    Thank you.
    Look back at what Cap’n Ed actually wrote about all of this:
    Cap’n Ed:Twin Cities residents now have to share a moment of shame with New York City. Forty years ago, Kitty Genovese screamed for help when being murdered, and her Big Apple neighbors didn’t lift a finger to help her — not even to dial the phone to call the police. Yesterday, police in St. Paul say that at least 10 people saw a sexual assault take place in their hallway but did nothing to stop it…
    It isn’t until the fourth paragraph that the word “Somali” even appears, and even then Cap’n Ed notes that it’s something that the Pioneer Press wrote themselves; were they waving the bloody shirt? The word “Muslim” doesn’t appear at all, though we may assume that the perp is Muslim from his name (if so, then he was apparently not a good enough Muslim to abstain from alcohol).
    What “red meat” is Cap’n Ed throwing to his audience to get us all riled up? Unless you want to accuse him of using “code words” (a favorite liberal tactic), it appears to me that the only “outrage” he’s trying to gin up is against rapists and people who are so callous as to stand around while a woman is being brutalized. I suspect that Cap’n Ed would have written a very similar post had a white woman been brutalized in an apartment building crowded with white Christians (or Joooooos, eh dave?).
    Let’s talk about political correctness for a moment and how insidious and mindnumbing it is. You and dave made a couple of assumptions:
    1. That Cap’n Ed is some sort of a bigot for DARING to write this post in the first place, and;
    2. That most of his readers are also bigots because this would be “red meat” for us.
    Who, exactly, do you suppose that we are we bigotted against? Somalis? Black people? Muslims? Could it POSSIBLY be that we are bigotted against rapists and the sort of spineless cowards who would stand around and do nothing when faced with such a crime?
    Consider also the mental process you went through when you read the post. It seems to me that it must have been nothing short of mental self-censorship. You didn’t even want to read the post, not because it didn’t interest you, but rather because (gasp!) it can be seen as critical of minorities! That’s RACIST! Like any citizen of our modern, liberal Oceania, you almost – but not quite – managed to perform an Orwellian crimestop (“I mustn’t even think such things!”). At the same time, you managed to smear Cap’n Ed and the rest of us, primly assuming that he wrote this post and we read it because we’re all bigots. There was nothing else to discuss, nothing else to even think about. The crime in question might never even have happened as far as you were concerned. “Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.”
    Is this what it’s come to? That crime and punishment or immigration can’t even be discussed because it MIGHT be construed as racist? Should the media have buried the story for fear of accusations of waving the bloody shirt? Should the police have walked away from the crime for fear of charges of racial profiling? Should we all just close our eyes… and our minds?

  32. “So in the US, what the bystanders did here is not illegal.”
    No duty to rescue (which is not absolute) has more to do with liability issues than psychology. You live in America, Dave, it’s all about lawsuits.
    I think perhaps you are also attempting to redefine the issue into one you find more palatable. As I understood the original post, the Somali spokesman explained that the Somali born residents of the apartment building did not involve themselves in this matter because they didn’t want to get involved with the police. By this I think it’s reasonable to assume that he meant the residents didn’t want to call the police or answer questions from the police or be called to testify.
    The original post then asks: Is this really the reason or is it more likely that rape is not viewed with opprobrium in Somali culture? Meaning, the onlookers didn’t see the assault as a crime?
    I would be interested in hearing about the psychology of that issue though. What is the psychology behind watching a woman being raped? Because remember they didn’t just turn away, many of them watched.

  33. I think Shiria law is operative here. Rage should be whipped for drinking alcohol and the women stoned for allowing herself to be raped. Multiculturalism at its finest.

  34. doc, I’m beginnign to understand why I enjoy these conversations with you. They make me think and examine my own motivations… a frequently-painful but useful form of self-discipline.
    Yes, I’m very sensitive to racism, and yes, I do tend to see and dislike “code words.” That’s not a partisan issue, of course… both sides use code words to appeal to their base.
    I think what bothers me about the Captain’s post is the issue of conflation. In my view, conflation led directly to the mess in Iraq… which shows how powerful it is. It’s an old, old political trick, and a manipulative and incendiary form of discourse.
    If we want to discuss the issue of societal indifference to witnessing rape and violence, why bring illegal immigrants into it? On the other hand if we want to discuss the negative influence of non-assimilation on American society, why bring this specific rape into it? Rapes happen everywhere, after all, not just in immigrant communities.
    And no, I don’t think modern Republicans are more bigoted than other Americans. I think they’re genuinely frightened. I also think Republican leaders and thought-shapers are trying hard to exploit this fear for political advantage.

  35. Filistro said:
    “If we want to discuss the issue of societal indifference to witnessing rape and violence, why bring illegal immigrants into it?”
    Were these Somali immigrants illegal? Or is that an automatic assumption, if you’re not a citizen you must be illegal?
    I don’t know what the blog owner wanted to discuss but what he did discuss was the fact that the Somali spokesman justified the non-interference as a fear of the police not an indifference to rape.
    “On the other hand if we want to discuss the negative influence of non-assimilation on American society, why bring this specific rape into it? Rapes happen everywhere, after all, not just in immigrant communities.”
    How do rapes occurring in non-immigrant communities relate to the issue of non-assimilitation?

  36. filistro,
    What is Cap’n Ed conflating, exactly? He voices indignation that a woman is raped in the full view of several other people who do nothing to stop it, and that some damned fool tries to pass it off with a lot of babble about “mistrusting the police”. Seems pretty straightforward and uncomplicated to me…
    Perhaps there were ten other similar incidents recently that DIDN’T involve minorities, immigrants, Somalis, Muslims, people whose first name begins with “I”, or whatever. I don’t know. What I DO know is that the incident in St. Paul is an outrage. What I can’t understand (well, I sort-of can) is how you and dave manage to turn it into a racial / political issue. Waving the bloody shirt? Republicans are more frightened than other people??? What are we afraid of, exactly? Once again, I think you’re assuming that we’re all bigots: we “fear” minorities / Muslims / black people / etc.
    I reiterate that I can’t see ANYWHERE in the original post where Cap’n Ed was trying to use this issue to gin up any outrage against Muslims, immigrants, or anybody other than rapists and cowards.
    Which bothers you more: what happened to the woman, or that fact that Cap’n Ed has dared to write about it? How do you feel about Michael Vick, by the way? Is discussing him verbotten, too? Can we only discuss crimes when they are committed by white Christian males?
    On another note, several people have voiced their opinion that the .45 ACP cartridge, especially when fired from the M1911 pistol, is the ideal anti-goblin device. It is certainly an excellent choice but (may the spirits of Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper forgive me!) I’ve become a fan of the 9x19mm. Indeed, my heresy extends so far as a pssion for the 9x18mm Makarov. If I packed (which I don’t), it would be a tough choice: Ruger P97 in .45 ACP; Sig P225 in 9x19mm; or Bulgie Mak in 9x18mm. With any of these fine, reliable sidearms on my hip, I’d feel adequately armed for anything short of a major shootout (in which case I’d want a good rifle or a 12 gauge, anyway).

  37. Doc asks… How do you feel about Michael Vick, by the way? Is discussing him verbotten, too?
    Well, doc, since you ask… 🙂
    It really, truly amazes me, this whole Michael Vick thing.
    I’m a writer. I make my living writing suspense fiction, and I have worked with a number of editors who would never allow the protrayal of cruelty to a dog to appear in a book published by their house. Too much damage to the image and the bottom line, they all said.
    Of course you can show little kids raped and brutalized, female corpses hanging on meat hooks, men flayed and slowly dismembered while still alive… but try killing a dog and you’re going to be asked to rewrite the whole chapter.
    We can’t really talk about Michael Vick at all… not because he’s a bad, greedy, arrogant black man, but because… he hurts puppies.
    Why is America like this? I honestly don’t know. But if it’s not straying too far off topic I’d love to hear some ideas on the subject from the more throughtful social observers at this site.

  38. swabjockey05
    You make an excellent point about the bat being taken away. It would also really suck if the rapist got up and said “never bring a bat to a gun fight son”.
    Even though I am 6’4″, 225 pounds, you could probably take me down and have me screaming like a little girl due to your wrestling backround. I had the unfortunate experience of hitting the CT state wrestling champs car with a snowball in high school. The dude hunted me down like he was the terminator. I finally had to stop running and accept the eventual beat down. A truely humbling experience!

  39. Kitty Genovese, bless her soul created a movement in American culture that went a long way to America healing itself and swinging Americans away from heading down the rabbit hole in becoming an uncharitable, uncaring and uninvolved culture.
    When does that turning point get reached in Muslim subcultures (rhetorical question)?
    I don’t know why we let these folks in our country. They need to pack up their sorry asses and leave, now.

  40. Dr J.
    Very good choices, shipmate!! (but did you throw in the Rusky for PC purposes ;>)
    I have to admit I didn’t chose the 1911 for it’s Combat Shooting characteristics as much as for the fact that mine (one of them) is a “real” 1911 (not A1) and is thus a very old piece of steel. Going on 100 years and it will still put down every lunatic (or commie) stupid enough to get within range…plus if you run outta ammo, you can use it like a brick. It’s a lot harder and heavier than your 9mm. Even with the bad rotator cuff, I’m confident I could knock someone out with it if I got within 10 feet or so…

  41. filistro wrote (August 24, 2007 1:08 PM):
    … you can show little kids raped and brutalized, female corpses hanging on meat hooks, men flayed and slowly dismembered while still alive… but try killing a dog and you’re going to be asked to rewrite the whole chapter.
    Yeah, it’s weird. I’m a canophile myself (who could own – nay, even SEE – a Shetland Sheepdog and not become a dog lover for life?) and think what he did was outrageous. BUT… It’s not like he killed a person. Others have commented about this, including (IIRC) Rush. I want crime punished, of course, but it seems that people are more disturbed that Vick killed dogs than they would be if he’d have done the same to people. Weird.
    But my point was that some people / groups, like the Atlanta NAACP, want to give Vick a pass. “You’re picking on him because he’s BLACK!” PC at work…

  42. Tim,
    We could do some Round Robins after drinks and a few laughs maybe…but this carcass is too worn out to trust it in anything more serious.
    God created men but is was Col Colt who made ’em equal.
    OBTW: Am I the only one who sees the irony in the fact that the same nitwit lefty trolls who cry about Bush Hitler, the NSA, DIA and the “Police State”…are the very same nitwits who want to disarm Americans…and thus give all the power to the very same “Police State”?
    Hmmmmmm.

  43. doc, I too used to adore Shetland Sheepdogs until a year or so ago when I noticed their uncanny resemblance to David Gregory. http://www.nfib.com/docs/IO/28874/img28874.jpg
    Now I’m not so sure anymore…
    As to that whole self-profiling, self-pitying mindset: “We’re all victims because…” No, I have scant patience with such whining.
    Mind you, I’m sure there are people who do get picked on intermittently throughout their whole lives because they’re black or whatever. Lots of them. But blaming all your problems on your gender/ skin color /race /ethnicity/ religion is never going to advance your cause.
    When we see so many people all around us, more all the time, who succeed in spite of these things, people cannot validly complain that they’re held down because of them.

  44. Story is appearing in overseas papers without the information that there were Somali’s, refugees, and/or Muslims involved. In other words, it’s a straight “normal Americans ignore rape in hallway” story. I find that annoying.

  45. filistro,
    I will forgive confusing the Shetland Sheepdog with an Old English Sheepdog once. Once.
    David Gregory MIGHT be confused with any dog. Or, more specifically, that part of any dog right under the base of its tail.
    swabjockey wrote (August 24, 2007 2:06 PM):
    Am I the only one who sees the irony in the fact that the same nitwit lefty trolls who cry about Bush Hitler, the NSA, DIA and the “Police State”…are the very same nitwits who want to disarm Americans…and thus give all the power to the very same “Police State”?
    No. I’ve often mused about this. I remember when the dems lost in ’04 and thought they might lose in ’06: some of the more extreme of them were threatening secession or “taking it to the streets”. With what? A double organic soy decaf latte? We nasty ol’ rightwingers have all the guns.
    In the same vein, I can’t understand feminists’ aversion to guns. One would think that, if there was ANY group that would be very much in favor of bearing arms, it would be them. Imagine going through life thinking that every man is a potential rapist… and being unarmed? But I guess liberal ideology trumps feminism (common sense, of course, hasn’t got a prayer).

  46. DocJim,
    I assume you are talking about projectiles of less than 400 grains to keep from penetrating hallway walls; specialty lightweight arms in other words. I like the .475 Linebaugh to make a serious point.
    Great discussion.
    nickess

  47. nickess,
    Yeah, don’t want too much overpenetration. Too much recoil makes any follow-up shots (if needed!) a bit more difficult.

  48. lol!
    Unless you’re shootin’ at them little steel targets…from the prone position. Never tried it. Makes the back/neck hurt just watching the dudes but a bead on the target.
    Doc, I used the same point to win over my lovely (but far-out Lefty Dhimmicrat) wife on the gun issue…sort of. She used to want to ban them but now “regulation” is good enough for her. Guess that counts as “one for the good guys”. I take ’em where I can get ’em.

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