April 10, 2007

The Tortured Logic Of Simon Jenkins

The apparent reversal of the British Navy on the sale of stories from their 15 sailors and Marines captured by Iran undoubtedly pleased many, but maybe none so oddly as The Guardian's Simon Jenkins. Jenkins decried the tabloid bidding war not primarily because of its impact on military discipline, but because stories of abuse and torture would make it harder for Britain to conduct diplomacy with Iran. No, really:

We need dialogue with Iran. By pumping up the propaganda war with the sale of captives' stories, that only becomes harder

The Royal Navy's decision to let its personnel sell stories of their failed military operation beggars ever more belief. Even the most ardent student of government openness must wonder at the thought processes involved. The navy may no longer rule the waves, but it waives the rules when it sees the glint of money. Last night it appeared to admit it was wrong, or at least a minister did. Are any of these people really in charge of British military operations? ...

As long as the Iraq occupation continues, Iran is bound to treat Britain and the US as hostile intruders. The west is fighting counterinsurgency wars on Iran's eastern and western borders. Iranian politics is awash with sympathisers for the insurgents. Moderate leadership is blighted by daily atrocities to coreligionists in and around Baghdad. While Tehran has no interest in the Taliban in Afghanistan, it has emotional and religious attachment to the Shia cause in Iraq. No government can stand aloof from the invasion and occupation of a neighbouring state by a foreign power. To expect otherwise of Iran is naive.

Hence the one silver lining that might have emerged from the affair of the captive 15. As a result of the efforts required to free them, some new points of contact might have been opened with those in Tehran who want their country to come in from the cold. Iran is too big, proud, rich and unpredictable a nation to be susceptible to the usual neoconservative swagger. Whatever the import of President Ahmadinejad's boast yesterday, it is clearly on the brink of acquiring substantial nuclear capability. It is not another petty Muslim state of the sort that features in the crusader fantasies of George Bush, Tony Blair and their circle. If ever Blair hoped to carry his "western values agenda" on a white charger to the gates of Tehran, that hope vanished in the mire of Iraq.

This screed bounces all over the place -- from Iraq to neocons to "mad mullahs of the quarterdeck", Jenkins tries mightily to place blame everywhere but on the country that committed the act of war. Jenkins claims that Iran is too big, rich, proud, and unpredictable, apparently to be held accountable for its own actions. And because of that bigness, richness, and unpredictability, Britain and the US have to overlook the act of war Iran committed in shanghaing the sailors and Marines in international waters, as well as the Geneva Convention violations they committed by forcing the detainees to issue humiliating public statements on Iranian TV.

And why does Jenkins hysterically blame everyone but the mullahs? Because we have to keep channels open to the political establishment that supposedly opposes the nuclear buildup and Iranian military aggression. Jenkins declares that American policies of "ostracism, containment, and regime change" have been counterproductive. Jenkins fails to mention, though, that the European policy of diplomatic and economic engagement have proven just as unsuccessful for Iran, which continues to push its nuclear program forward despite years of talks with Britain, France, and Germany.

So what's left? War? Jenkins also rejects this path, and for at least a few good reasons, including the size and terrain of Iran and the generally (but mildly) pro-Western bent of the average Iranian. He never mentions the consequences of talking for too long without any resolution to the nuclear crisis, even though Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has made clear his intention of wiping out Israel and forcing the West out of the Middle East.

The West cannot conduct an all-out war against Iran, but we can't afford to just keep talking at them while they cheerfully enrich uranium and develop nuclear weapons -- not while they continue to sponsor terrorists and publicly pronounce their plans for genocide. The one policy we know has failed has been diplomatic and economic engagement; all Britain got from its years of engagement was a national humiliation. Perhaps a blockade might get better results.


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Comments (27)

Posted by Helen [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 5:19 AM

There is another reason for this incredible media circus - a number of senior naval officers who, not to put too fine a point on it, cocked up rather badly, were trying to cover their backs by directing attention at the young sailors and marines. It did not work. We have been following the saga on our blog: http://eureferendum.blogspot.com

Posted by TheRealSwede [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 6:55 AM

I find it interesting how the left is prepared to allow for all manner of destructive behavior on the part of regimes such as Iran, while at the same time expecting that Western governments must take more than their share of responsibility for the health of these national relationships. The left's view point is entirely reminiscent of a parent-child interaction, and when applied to nation states and whole peoples, is ironically the epitome of racism to expect of Iran anything less than that which we expect of ourselves in the realm of international relations.

Posted by Lightwave [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 6:55 AM

The West cannot conduct an all-out war against Iran, but we can't afford to just keep talking at them while they cheerfully enrich uranium and develop nuclear weapons -- not while they continue to sponsor terrorists and publicly pronounce their plans for genocide. The one policy we know has failed has been diplomatic and economic engagement; all Britain got from its years of engagement was a national humiliation. Perhaps a blockade might get better results.

A total naval blockade followed by an EU trade boycott would have solved the Ahmadinejad problem years ago, but that would involve a world united behind the idea that Iran cannot hold the world's largest oil reserves hostage with nuclear weapons. Once it gets to that point, all bets are off.

All out war may not be an option, but a targeted bombing campaign surely is, and we're running out of time on exercising that option.

As far as the 15 Brits selling their stories...too little, too late. The UK is still the laughing stock of the world right now, having been completely undone by goody bags.

Posted by BarCodeKing [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 7:19 AM

The "generally (but mildly) pro-Western bent of the average Iranian" won't do them much good if an Iranian-sourced nuke goes off in an American or British city. At that point, they'll be in the same position that "good Germans" or "good Japanese" were in 1945.

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 9:01 AM

Sorry to break up the ignorance but it is the american army that is the laughing stock of the world. The brain washed americans belief in your greatests and superiority will lead you to a pepetual war. Bin laden got away on a bloody donkey for christ sake !. American arrogance and hypocrisy led to you being attacked on 9/11 you seem to still have no answer to why? By dehumanising a whole region as evil,you can easily call for fellow human beings torture and death. There is few things that America can be proud of, polarised as a nation and isolated from the world. I pity your lack of insight.

Posted by SDN [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 9:19 AM

Well, millie, men and countries are known by the enemies they make. You reassure me that America is on the right track.

Posted by unclesmrgol [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 10:47 AM


Your pity is not needed. However, I would suggest that, if you are going to post in English, that you use a spell checker; a grammar checker would be nice too.

And, Millie, why don't you tell us what those people in the Two Towers did to deserve what happened to them? I'm really interested in your analysis of the situation. What justifies that kind of attack? Why should a sovereign state allow such an attack to go unpunished? Those are the two points you appear to be making -- that the United States deserved to be attacked, and that it should do nothing in response, since the attack is only penance for something the United States has done wrong.

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 12:17 PM

unclesmrgol, Do the people of the sovereign state of Iraq deserve this? Why should 600,000 Iraqi's have to die so the u.s can be 'safe' .The world mourned with americans on 9/11,however no-one said you deserved it but there was a feeling of ,now you know what it is like. American foreign policy has led to deaths and maiming of many around the world in the last 60 years. Be it guns,bombs,money,politic's, greed and buisness , it's the ripple effect from this that came to your shores. See how angry you are to inflict punishment for 3000 lives,imagine how 600,000 feels and thousands of others who have been victim to american 'aid'. By not understanding that until you deal with America's blinkered support and funding for Israel it will not matter how many countries you invade. Reality check the U.S has always been seen as a ignorant bully who fails to learn from mistakes, you have never been seen as the good guy because you are not. . Yes my spelling and grammar is crap considering i am from the u.k.

Posted by Count to 10 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 1:12 PM

Ed, a technicality--The 15 brits were abducted from Iraqi teritorial waters, not international waters. The Iranians violated Iraqi waters to do the deed.

You do know that the number 600,000 comes from a discredited survay, right? The real number is an order of mangnitude smaller, and the responsibility of totalitarians in Iraq, as well as Syria and Iran.
Also, you should remmember that it is the USSR that is actually responsible for the "deaths and maiming of many around the world in the last 60 years." The reality is that you are holding tight to Soviet propaganda long after the soviets gave it up.

Posted by DamnWalker [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 1:19 PM

Please explain why you feel the West "cannot" conduct an all out war against Iran? Perhaps you may mean should not, or will not, but cannot? I don't understand because, if we really wanted to, we could conduct full scale, all out war against Iran. In reality, should there be any other kind? Otherwise, you get Iraq and Vietnam. What we need is a Sherman and a Grant and a Lincoln, and this whole issue would be taken care of. Remember, the press and establishment of their day hated them as well. But in hindsight, they got it right.

Posted by Lew [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 2:21 PM

Poor Jenkins, he still thinks he can control monsters with little pieces of paper and a battery of solicitors. I can see him now, in his powdered whig and his flowing robe and his long elegant finger pointed so righteously to the stormy sky, railing away as England sinks beneath the waves, "Point of order! Point of order!"

The point is that talking to Syria or Iran, or even North Korea for that matter, is utterly and completely pointless because we have no reason to believe that their words have any value. Whatever they agree to or sign or promise, will not affect their behavior one bit, because they know that there is nothing we would really do about it in any case. Lacking physical force, we have no credibility there at all.

This is like having a burglar and his lawyer show up at your house and while you and the lawyer dispute the burglar's right to steal your possessions, the burglar cleans out your house. When the burglar finishes up, his lawyer says he'll get back to you about it, and then gets back into the burglar's car and they drive away with your stuff. In a way its a win-win situation; you got to talk and the burglar got your stuff.

Have a nice day!

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 3:01 PM

count to ten, the 600,000 figure came from a british publication the lancet ,i would rather believe them then the u.s .It doesn't matter,you will agree that it's in the thousands.It wasn't the soviets that killed 1-2 million in vietnam,or american actions in cambodia,chile,el-salvador,nicaragua,sudan....i could go on.Never mind that american arms used by Israel to kill palestinians,the Lebanese.Even here in the u.k americans were funding and supporting i.r.a terrorists,not much shoulder to shoulder then. You cannot grow as a nation if you can't embrace your own history be it the good and the bad,why is it so hard for americans to critisize when deserved your countries actions.Adapting you views when gaining knowledge is not a sign of weakness it is a sign of maturity.

Posted by Rich [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 3:19 PM

Millie is a fine rep of the left. Totally hating the country and totally resistant to logic or argument. You go leftie!!!

Posted by Jam [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 3:24 PM

Millie, you can believe the Lancet all you want, that doesn't make the figure accurate! How immature of you, that you wish to believe exaggerations rather than the documented truth. Here is a UN llink that places the amount dead at far lower and more accurate a number. And most, as noted have been killed by their fellow Iraqis and other Muslims. http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/17/africa/web.0117iraq.php?page=2

Get a grip!

Posted by Count to 10 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 3:55 PM

I wrote "responsible," not "killed." The US would have been just fine with not killing anyone, but the Soviets insisted. Likewize, in Iraq, it is the other side that insists on killing. They are not fighting for for their lives, nor are they fighting for freedom or independance, they are fighting for domination, and the joy of killing. And so people die. If they all gave up, the violence would stop, and Iraq would prosper. If we gave up, the violence would get worse and Iraq would suffer. Which do you prefer?

And, from what I understand, the funding for the IRA came from individual Irish-Americans who were often misslead as to what they were contributing to, probably a lot like muslim-americans recently.

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 5:02 PM

lt may help if more americans get a passport and travel to meet these evil doers and a race of people called'non-americans' . You will find that we are human beings with the same hopes and dreams as us all. Calling these people 'evil' has allowed the u.s to de-humanise a large part of the world.. Killing for joy ,really,you have no moral superiority ,from the glee your soldiers were seen in abu graib ,to haditha ,raping a14 yr old murdering her family before killing her. It's the u.s that loves killing,huge budget spent on your miliartry while child poverty ,lack of health care for your sick and vunerable alarms the world.That lack of kowledge about the world is breath-taking,ignorance must be bliss.

Posted by rvastar [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 6:53 PM

Why should 600,000 Iraqi's have to die so the u.s can be 'safe'

Let's just pretend your ridiculous number of casualities is correct. Let's also pretend that your ridiculous number of casualties actually happened at the hands of the US military.

So what you're saying is that you're outraged by the fact that 600,000 Iraqis have been killed by Americans, right?

Tell us, millie: where was your outrage when Saddam Hussein was actually killing a lot more than 600,000 Iraqis?

Huh, millie?

Where were you, millie?

What were you doing to help the poor Iraqis, millie?

I'll tell you what you were doing, millie.



Sitting around with your jerk-off buddies, being the same foul, sanctimonious pr*ck you're being here.

FACT: Iraqis were dying by the thousands - by the hundreds of thousands - before 2003 at the hands of Saddam Hussein...for decades. And you didn't give a sh**. But now - now - you "care". Your newfound "outrage" is utterly meaningless, millie. You're an empty suit. A suit I'd gladly wipe my a** with, right after the Lancet roll runs out.

I actually hope that you're young enough to have a front row seat when the UK's multicultural bomb goes off. Who knows? Maybe you can "negotiate" yourself some protection from the knife at your neck. If not, at least you can take some comfort in telling yourself that the jihadi sawing your head off isn't to blame...it's those arrogant and ignorant Americans.

Posted by unclesmrgol [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 10, 2007 9:27 PM


Actually, Saddam and his successors in the Baathist arena have killed far more Iraqis than the Americans.

I see Muslims killing Muslims all over the place there, and only occasionally is an American either the killer or the killed. They've got real problems, and the problems ain't us.

Oh, by the way, since you claim to be from the UK, how did you guys make out on 7/7? Everything OK?

And doesn't Simon Jenkins know that the British already tried surrendering in advance? As I remember, it was to the Germans, and playing nice to them did not make them play nice to Britain in the end. We Americans do tend to learn the lessons of history, and not to make them twice. If we should have to invade Iran, don't expect us to stay around and take further casualties trying to fix what we've broken.

Finally, do you know what event turned America into a superpower? Hint: Neville Chamberlain, Czechoslovakia, France. We do know our own history, and we were dragged kicking and screaming from isolationism into a world war not of our making. Now that we know that the world we ignore can hurt us badly, don't expect us to ignore it further. Those who think that way do so at their peril, the Iranians included.

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 11, 2007 6:19 AM

You all seem to be suckered into an enemies game. Good v evil, Civilised v un-civilised.If you just went into the real world,read international news,even had international news for the last 30 years you may of seen what the world opinion of iraq during sanctions and events in the middle east and the u.s ignorance of what was being done in your name.and what happens when you stand up to bullys(u.s funding of bin-laden,unding saddam with the chemicals he used on the kurds where was I? I was watching Rumsfeld shaking saddams hand, i was listening to madeline albright saying that the death of 500,000 children by sanctions was 'worth it'. . That's why when the second plane hit ,dogs in the street knew who and why,while bewildered americans were saying 'but we gave them mcdonalds' It is futile for yanks to condone your behaviour because the 'baddies' did bad things,we should insist that we act with higher responsibilities.The rest of the world has been trying to make the u.s see that Israel and u.s un-conditional support against international law is the focus. Why are the palestinians your enemy? I used to fondly think that americans were just not informed and that wasn't their fault because if they say they are for justice, human rights and freedom then they just couldn't blindly back israel ,but if they really knew.... Everbody is telling you this-when will you get it.Gitmo reflects American Hedgmony. Again i am in the u.k this is not about your domestic politic's, we are not just anti-american/anti-sematic whatever that means.We are not jealous ,cowards,surrender monkeys if you are hearing this for the first time then that is interesting , for it would be difficult to find any pro-u.s views except for a wavering tony blair who will be gone in the next month.The world never asked america to be the world police,and in return america has never done anything for liberty and freedom,only for national interests,which is fine as long as you don't kid yourselves that you are a 'beacon',that us poor non-americans strive for your freedoms..HELLO..it was never like that.

Posted by rvastar [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 11, 2007 7:36 AM

I was watching Rumsfeld shaking saddams hand, i was listening to madeline albright saying that the death of 500,000 children by sanctions was 'worth it'.

Nice attempt at a dodge, millie...but I didn't ask you what you were watching and/or listening to on TV. I asked you what were you D-O-I-N-G: you who are so disturbed by Iraqi casualties - you who care so much for the poor Iraqis - you whose example we "arrogant" Americans should learn from - what were you doing to help the Iraqis as they were being murdered by Saddam?

Hmm, oh Moral Beacon of the Global Community?

Posted by Count to 10 [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 11, 2007 1:58 PM

I wish I had the words to break you out of your dark little world, but I don't. Until you step out of the box you have confined your thinking to, you will not see anything I write to you as anything but an attack on you.

From my perspective, your view of world events is highly distorted, and that isn't going to change in you can't give up your prejudices for even a moment.

Try to imagine a real person who could disagree with you, not some characture.

Posted by Jam [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 11, 2007 3:02 PM

Let's see, why are the Palestinians our enemy? Hello? Hamas was responsible for more American deaths up until 9/11. Israel is the ONLY democracy in a sea of tyrants and dictatorships. Why wouldn't we support the only nation in that region that is like us? And like the UK? You really are a Jew-hater aren't you? Didn't YOU learn anything from WW II? I have traveled abroad. I do read news from many other outlets everyday. We do NOT live in an echo chamber here in the states. So get your sorry head out of your sorry arse, Millie and stop with the stereotypes and really consider for once all that is done in the name of good by democracies. Your rants are so familiar and so flimsy of leftoids. You get them all in there, don't ya? Evil - George Bush, America, the Joooss! Good - Eurocentrism, socialized medicine, World News outlets, the Palestinians! Yawn...get a new schtick b4 you come back, would ya?

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 12, 2007 7:58 AM

Ok you want me and the vast amounts of our countrymen and politicians to come out of our box. Maybe if you got out of your country you may have a more balanced view of the world you are tying to destroy. 'Stero-types'-so i am a jew hating lefty,,french are cowards,all muslims enjoy killing and are evil-doers,axis of evil.......we do not just get our knowledge by just listening to americans we all have the right to do what is in our nations interest.What do you not understand about the words OCCUPIED LAND'. Why would i a 40yr old mother of 2 want to kill jews it is possible to support israel but be critical when deserved,and there is many times.,to do that . Are you saying that every thing Israel does with american money is justfied ? S o if the british disagree then we are not an allie How come you slate hammas,but your president and senators have invited sinnfein for a knee's up for years in the white house-barr 1yr. Peter King threw a 50 th birthday pary for gerry adams.Maybe in 20 years bin laden may wear a suit and we will invite him to meet the queen . It's these double standards that makes us not want to be shoulder to shoulder , you will still not extradite wanted i.r.a men because-wait for it- they wouldn't get a fair trial. Let martin mcguiness in to fund raise,throw cat stevens of a plane.Yes our closest allie,the irony is that guess who invented the roadside bomb-yup your dinner guests-terrorists are inter-connected .You all obvious have no idea about world opinion ,and by your replys not willing to hear with out attacking,unfortuantly your president does the same.We are not supporting terrorism,we have been a victim of it for 30 yrs. And 7/7 ,did you see how different the reaction was then 9/11,we were back on the tube the next day-terrorism doesn't have to kill just terrorise.No body called to invade any-where. You can't alienate a whole region of the world who may have a point and need to be heard. Your misjudged view of america foreign policy leads to american believing the biggest army is the best.If you get your history from hollywood then believe you liberated and nobly freed the world from tyranny single handed.I am totally open to different americans point of view,that's why i am on here.Don't just attack me ,I don't think you know or care about world opinion,if you think that is a good thing then i fear for your children and grandchildren. Go on invade iran on your own or with Israel-Iraq and Lebanon went well,you are obviously liberator's -liberating their oil. God bless america.

Posted by rvastar [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 12, 2007 6:21 PM

Maybe if you got out of your country you may have a more balanced view of the world you are tying to destroy.

That we're trying to destroy? Was it the US who was shooting, beheading, burning, and bombing innocent people in these countries in 2006 alone?

- Pakistan

- Thailand

- Algeria

- Morocco

- Phillippines

- Yemen

- Saudi Arabia

- India

- Sudan

- Russia

- Somalia

- Chechnya

- Bangladesh

- Indonesia

- Dagestan

- Jordan

- Lebanon

- Chad

- Ethiopia

- Turkey

- Kosovo

- Kyrgyzstan

- Ingushetia

- Nigeria


- France

- Tajikistan

Are you saying that every thing Israel does with american money is justfied?

Of course not. Only idiots like yourself reduce arguments to such simplistic nonsense. You make some stupid comment like that one - which means absolutely nothing, illustrates absolutely nothing, and proves absolutely nothing - then pat yourself on the back for being so...oh, I don't know...whatever incredibly awesome thing you think it is that you're being.

You expect absolute perfection from the US and Israel, yet bend over backwards to completely ignore/explain away/justify the most barbarous acts imaginable. Want proof? Just look back over your posts in this thread. Not one word of denunciation for anyone but the US and Israel. NOT. ONE. WORD.

Here's some advice: Think for yourself a little more - The Clash was just a band, dude.

We are not supporting terrorism,we have been a victim of it for 30 yrs.

Wrong, millie!

According to your moral compass, you've been the victim of "human beings with the same hopes and dreams", right? I mean, "What do you not understand about the words OCCUPIED LAND", millie? And considering how long Ireland's been "occupied", your sense of moral righteousness and indignation over British imperialism should be just about cataclysmic by now. Right, millie?

Oh, and just a little compare/contrast for you: Islamic terrorists killed more civilians in two hours on 09/11/01 than Irish terrorists killed in 26 years of fighting (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/book/index.html).

What have you got to say about that, millie? Oh, that's right - nothing - cuz they're all just "human beings with the same hopes and dreams".

I don't think you know or care about world opinion

1) Wrong about not knowing.
2) Right about not caring.

Why? Because "the world" gets it's opinions from the Western media, which is completely and utterly dominated by leftist sh**heads such as yourself.

"The world" is full of people who think that it's OK to beat women to death for being raped.

"The world" is full of people who think that snorting powderized rhino penis makes them virile and strong.

"The world" is full of people who say things like "it wasn't the soviets that killed 1-2 million in vietnam" without any inkling of the jaw-dropping stupidity it illustrates considering the fact that a) it's bulls*** and b) the Soviets killed 100 million of their own citizens!

Wanna know something I've always found funny? Secular liberals like you enjoy nothing more than making fun of Christians who believe that the world was created only 6,000 years ago - caricaturing them as ignorant, superstitious zealots. But the funny part is that you're no different. People like you seem to think that human history started just over 60 years ago, with the rise of the United States on the global scene. Every evil that exist in the world - every injustice - every bad feeling - every toothache - every scraped knee - EVERYTHING is the fault of the US. Oh...and Israel.

But I'll at least give you credit for this...you didn't even attempt to explain away your lack of outrage over Saddam's brutality this time. Well done, millie. Learning to keep your mouth shut when you're out of your depth is important. Now you know...and knowing is the half the battle.

It really is a sad fact that you're so representative of the Western mind at this crucial time in history. You're a pathetic joke...with no more depth or originality than the puppets in Team America.

So please, allow me to close with a typically ignorant and arrogant American send off...

Kiss my ass.

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 13, 2007 3:45 PM

I thank you for your time.It has enabled me to see that americans are ignorant . you seem to think that i am a supporter of the democrates and this is were i get my information. Secular?The world doesn't separate you, these is aimed at all of you Bush represents all of you..i will pass on your good wishes to the victim's of I.R.A bombs,i mean okiahoma bombing that sooo last year.300 nah that's not enough to mourn. By the way i am irish. Terrorist do not have to kill to terrorise,ever been in a bomb scare,the panic ,.Not enough dead to matter-yes when they blew up a shopping centre on mothers day they only managed to kill 2 kids but was able to blow of limbs of many.Another bomb scare gave the location of the car bomb,trying to evacuate but they gave the wrong directions and 39 (14 kids,unborn twins) were led into the bomb,many having their heads blown off human tissue everwhere, Remembrance sunday , a church service for the war dead,bomb goes off the church is now rubble with 23 people dead underneath i could go on..Christian nation-every being counts my arse. I will watch and see if the U.S invades iran maybe then you will get what you deserve. You do realise that your army isn't that good, At one point they had killed more of our soldiers in 'un-friendly fire' then the enemy.You are being humiliated by young shepherds. If you can gain anything on these blogs,please see that there isn't just two countries America v rest of world you would benefit from leaving your country even reading international papers-we do.. so i will give you an irish blessing. POG MO THONE.

Posted by rvastar [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 13, 2007 7:25 PM

Ha ha! This is liking fishing with dynamite! Nice job at not being able to rebut one single point, millie!

I'm gonna keep this one short, since you don't present any actual arguments or relevant facts or anything for me to address.

Just keep pouring out the same old, re-re-re-re-re-re-hashed, stereotypical, emotive leftist bullsh**...obviously, it helps you to manage your anxiety about what's in store for your country and continent over the next 20 years or so.

Final piece of advice: go ahead and buy your burqa now. Practice wearing it in the safety of your home. Lounge around in it. That way, it won't be too much of a shock when your new masters take over.

Have a good weekend!

Posted by millie [TypeKey Profile Page] | April 14, 2007 8:20 AM

O.k if my credability rest on whether i tried to save iraqi's then so be it.What was i doing during that time?I had just had a curly perm and a cat called freda. Of course we didn't do enough,if it matters to you i did child sponsership and still do and make my spoilt kids send there toys ,also to other countries. Should of done more in rwanda, dafur, zimbawbe,America waited 2 years before helping in ww2,sorry what were you doing?. Why is there no self reflection and regret. ? You mentioned the british empire,yes decades ago and like america we saw ourselves as noble ,helping the world be like us.Only talked of the good,not about stripping countries of there natural resourses,trying to re-define the middle east, saying it was gods will,send our young and uneducated as cannon fodder,while the rich got richer.Other countries are strongly patriotic as well,which binds them .I don't want to bicker,this is why the world is a mess.I defend america as well,what i like about americans is your drive,hardworking race and positive,genuine belief that american values are a source for good and are generous. But so are other countries.Especially in the last 6 years you have pulled out of kyoto international courts not ratified extradition orders but demanded it works the other way round.while debating the iraq war here your country said we were irrelevant. The French are cowards ,the u.n is the devil. 'With us or are terrorists',no borders,torture,due process,abu graib,rendition,militry commisions at gitmo ,will not entertain the idea of global warming but believes noah really did have an ark.An enormous armed force,dominance through globalisation.Your country can do all this,fine but what brings bile into our mouths is the rationale behind it. All the crap about protecting and everyone leaves it to america to save the world,your money and influence is all for good,freedom and liberty,exceptional people that god blessed. You seem to think the world needs america. No-body has a problem with america dropping out of international systems.closing army barracks in countries like saudi and germany,close your borders,don't import any goods and don't out source jobs to the developing countries for whom everyone uses.Call a spade a spade,american interests dominates foreign policy ,nothing noble .Get your own house in order first before you tell us what to do.One of the highest rates for child poverty and mortality,one of the losest in child immunisation,health based on income.One of the main causes of death is obesity having to knock down a whole side of a house to release one citizens is troubling when the main cause of death in some areas in the world is famine.Politically, race and socially divided.Like you split yourselves in two rep/dem have a list of what each stand for draw a line then fight,when either side says or does anything stupid, instead of you all and your media and i include blogs saying thats stupid ,the argument is ,well the other side said something worse.Looking in ,honestly rvastar is like being in the playground.So you think i have got american's wrong ,show me ,surprise me let me see this.It's a beautiful day here in liverpool and i am of to the aintree grand national( i hope you know what that is) My horse is called knowhere and i have got a £1 on him to win,check it out it's a big day today in the u.k. It was ladies day yesterday i went in a metallic coloured burqa it's the new black!