Captain's Quarters -

If the federal government had wanted to detect massive identity fraud by illegal immigrants before, or to identify illegals who had overstayed visas and not committed identity fraud, linking the Social Security, IRS databases, and National crime databases would have revealed a great deal. But it was never done!

Chris Matthews (to my surprise) pressed Tony Snow on the idea that it logically follows that the biometric card for Z visa applicants, would also need to be required of all U.S. citizens in order for it to be a fully workable employment ID. In short, a national ID card. I think Matthews is right, although Snow and the language of the Immigration Reform bill denies it.

Finally, add in the State Department's recent fiasco in processing passport applications and it becomes impossible to believe that all of this (doable for the private sector, but extraordinarily difficult for government) database creation, linking, and management could be accomplished in anything short of 5 -10 years.

The Immigration Reform Bill is a disaster in many aspects,but actual implementation is certainly a major one.

Well one pretty basic reason for tightly controlling access is that the more access there is the more opportunities there are for identity thieves and other fraudsters. No employment screening or security clearance process is perfect. In classified information, a key tool is limiting access to people who have a need to know. It's purely a matter of statistics -- the fewer people who know something, the less likely it is to get out.

So it's completely reasonable to say that the incremental value of letting the Federal Bureau of XYZ have access to the records is not worth the incremental risk of having to worry about all those XYZ employees doing something illegal with the information.

If the federal government had wanted to detect massive identity fraud by illegal immigrants before, or to identify illegals who had overstayed visas and not committed identity fraud, linking the Social Security, IRS databases, and National crime databases would have revealed a great deal. But it was never done!

If the government had wanted illegal immigrants to stop paying taxes, then letting INS into the IRS / SS databases would have been the perfect way to accomplish this.

The existence of the Z-visas, would make the haystack smaller, but it would also make the needles invisible. For, from what I understand, even with only a provisional Z-visa, (the visa given to one who applies but is still waiting for the background check to be completed), the applicant cannot, under any circumstances, be apprehended, detained or deported in relation to any current immigration laws. If a terrorist were to have a relatively clean background so as not to trigger anything in the background check, he is very likely to slip through. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding something.

Cathyf -

Are you saying that federal government employees are less trustworthy than private sector employees (credit card companies, brokerage companies, banks, sinsurance companies, etc), or that security and encryption techniques used by the federal government would be less effective? If you don;t want detection of criminal activity, NOT linking databases is the first choice.

Your 2nd post seemd to indicate that you believe that illegal immigrants paying taxes should be a higher priority than detecting identity fraud.

Database access, or no access, when Z-Visa authentication is required to be done, by the employer, with very stiff penalties for not doing it, then just the fact that a resident alien has legitimate employment becomes an important fact for the police. Regular law enforcement can then worry more about resident aliens with no visible means of support. What exactly are they doing to earn a living?

Addition to my original post:

The 5-10 year timeline did not include any delays for litigation challenging the databases and any criminal prosecutions by the ACLU, et.al.. Add an additional 5-10 years.

As if the Atta types will be applying for legalization and get themselves into a database... LOL, this will be nothing more than a big database of the less violent illegals that can not even be used for law enforcement. Useless... it does nothing to improve national security.

Another reason to not trust this government.

Stupidity tends to run rampant in government on issues like this. I operate a small business. I would like to verify citizenship and status PRIOR to hiring a new employee or someone I contract with.

There is a Social Security Number Verification Service that you would think would help. Think again, from their manual:

"It is illegal to use the service to verify SSNs of potential new hires or contractors..."

First, I MUST HIRE THEM, then I can check their status. Just what you would expect from a political system.
http://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnvs_handbk.htm#what

Section 302 reads like a provision to protect the privacy of the newly documented aliens. There are similar privacy provisions in other federal statutes.

The theory of such privacy protection is to prevent government databases from being linked, one to another, for "Big Brother" surveillance purposes.

Of course, in the context of keeping track of alien residents of the U.S., legal or illegal, you'd think that privacy concerns would be subordinate to national security concerns. I'd say the database should be accessible to law enforcement and to national security agencies.

A different point: it really will take a decade to build such a database, assuming there's the funding and political will to do so. As in the past, those assumptions may turn out to be untrue.

One reason that the public isn't buying the "punishments", the fines, the restrictions on receiving welfare, etc, is that we know from long experience how our legal system works. I lived in California when Prop. 187 passed and when it was gutted by the lawyers and judges.

What will the ACLU and Clinton/Carter judges do, when they get their hands on this entire bill? What will they do with the database and who has access to it? I wouldn't put it past the 9th Circuit to grant voting rights to "undocumented Americans".

I pulled the restrictions on the database out of my memory, I'm glad I was close.

This is the type of question for the McCains, Bushs, Kennedys that should be asked. The only proponent for the bill that I've heard has been Tony Snow (on O'Reilly and Laura Ingraham's radio shows). Both times, he's been on for 15 minutes and filibusters all the time he could. Why are the opponents afraid to debate the bill?

If this bill is so good and if it's so popular, they could go up against Mark Levin or Hugh Hewitt for an hour or two hours. They're hiding and planning to shove this down our throats. This goes in the nature of the anti-democratic nature of the bill. Anti-democratic means suits an anti-democratic bill.

"When you're looking for an anonymous needle in an anonymous haystack, for a Mohammed Atta type, it helps a lot to cut the size of the haystack by 3/4. Z-Visas will make the haystack a lot smaller."

This is incorrect.

The thinking here seems to be that the problem regarding terrorism has to do with the existence of the millions of people in the country illegally. That is false. Mohammed Atta was in the country on a legal basis, for example.

Nobody familiar with the people pushing for the current bill can be under any illusion that the treat of terrorism has anything to do with their motivation. If nothing else, the fact that it is being pushed now, six years after 911, should be a tip off.

Here is another tell tale sign. A very large percentage, about 40%, of the people here illegally, came here on a legal basis, and then overstayed their visa.

Congress passed a law to deal with this in 1996. Yes, 1996!

The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act mandated a system to to collect records of the arrival and departure of every foreign visitor to the United States. After 911, provisions of the PATRIOT Act required that this be expanced to include biometric ID and that the system, to be called US-VISIT, be interoperable with law enforcement databases. In theory, foreign nationals who hold visas are required to provide fingerprints and photographs at the port of entry. Note that this is under current law, law which has been on the books for a long time and is STILL not in effect. It is not something which requires any new legislation at all.

This system is years past the date it was supposed to be completed and is still not ready. There is no sign that it will ever be ready.

Senator Vitter offered an amendment linking the guest worker and other legalization parts of the Senate bill to the completion of this system. If we are going to create a new visa system for guest workers, the Y visas, then surely we need to have a working system to detect when these people enter and leave the country. Who could be against such a thing?

Senator Vitters proposal was defeated, with the "gang" of Senators driving this bill all voting against it. This included McCain, Graham, and Kyl.

It beggars the imagination that there are people out there who are buyng the line that this current bill will improve border security, or that the people driving it WANT improved border security. Do they have to write it in letters of fire across the sky before you people will get the picture? Sadly, it seems the answer is yes.

"It is illegal to use the service to verify SSNs of potential new hires or contractors..."

But at least this wonderful new bill fixes that, right?

Oh, wait ...

Just 2 simple questions:

1. Why should we trust the Congress to write a reasonable immigration law that provides security for this great country and provides for managed immigration?

2. Why should we trust the federal, state and local bureaucracies to enforce these laws? The same ones that openly defy (sanctuary cities) or ignore the immigration laws.

Please provide specific answers, not shop-worn talking points delivered with indignation. Then we can talk. If you can't do that, do something else.

Based upon these very sophisticated comments, I'd say we already have the legislation in place necessary for enforcement of our immigration laws, and that the Senate's claim that this bill will further enhance enforcement is a smokescreen for amnesty, nothing more.

This is a massive, ongoing failure of American government over a period of decades equivalent to that which caused 9/11.

Z cards???

the only proven way to enforce the border is with a double wide fence. all this other bs about 100 foot ladders to go over the fence is just that, bullshit. people in the millions walked across the border because it is easy. they will continue to walk across until there is a fence along the entire border. all these stupid laws over the last 40 years will not, as they have not, change a thing. i don't care if you tattoo people's foreheads it won't make a difference.

there is already a vast 100's of billions of dollars underground that doesn't care about "your stinking laws". illegals hiring illegals. once they get here they know--possession is 9/10's of the law. just get here is the motto.

all these useless laws, and they are useless as the last 40 years have proven, will do nothing to stop the tsunami that floods across our border on foot. now if you actually think any of these "new" laws are going to be enforced--that's a medical condition.......

Some back room wheeling and dealing to slip this baby through via "procedural" devices and arcane "stratergeries": http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmJiMzVmZTZjNjE2ZWM4MDhiMWYzYTI3NjQ1ZjU4NmE=

We have senators who are not acting on behalf of the American people.

Want a data base? Try the Social Security Administration. Employers are required to have valid social security numbers. The SSA has a no match program (names to numbers), but rarely used and when used cautions employers not to use the notification letters for immigration purposes.

Run every payroll through this program and use for enforcement. That would eliminate 90% of non qualified workers from having employment.

Can anybody tell me why this isnt being done or proposed for the future? My representatives can't tell me and their staff doesnt know anything about it.

One of the major problems of databases is crossing information between them. There is a difference between theoretical utility of that and the actual, real utility of same. Getting agreement between databases has been an ongoing, long lasting, and costly problem which the FBI has not dealt with properly and failed twice over ten years in getting just a few databases to play nice with each other.

Even worse is that a biometric system only offers an idea that if everyone played 'legally' and went through border controls, that everything would be fine and dandy. The bad news is that that does not happen today. If you want individuals to go through controlled points, then the rest of the linear part of the border *also* needs to be controlled in a real, physical way... not a virtual way that will be outdated by the time it arrives and then thwarted by cheaper technology as it comes along. You will see a 'virtual wall' the same time you see a 'virtual bathroom'. No toilet paper allowed.

On top of that is the requirement to have multiple agencies with multiple 'turfs' to work together. These very same turf wars prevents the INTEL Community from acting *like* a Community. Each agency jealously guards its 'turf', drags its heels helping other agencies that intrude upon their turf, and, generally, do not provide a way to get enough information together in one spot, at one time to actually make sense of what each and every soda straw of information sees.

The only organization that has shown any capability at actually securing areas is the Armed Forces. An integrated actual wall with sensor arrays, deep pilings and ways to respond remotely would do that job with fewer people having to do physical patrols and border security and INS being able to concentrate at the ports of entry and going after businesses utilizing illegal labor. I do not want businesses and foreign nationals making immigration law via illegal contracts that breaks the laws of the foreign Nation, our Nation and Treaty obligations for international law. Businesses and individuals doing that are breaking with the Laws of Nations in that and I did not elect them to make up those laws for the US as that is reserved for Congress. I do not see why we put up with such businesses nor why federal subsidies go to them, nor why I should have any good feelings about international scofflaws no matter of their Nation of origin. If these companies need foreign labor they are to go through the channels set up by Congress. And as Congress wields the power of the US economy to get this done, which it used to the tune of 50% of GDP plus extra savings from the citizenry during WWII and that same power is available for all of the Laws of the Land, I should think getting this done would take quite a lot less than fighting a World War.

Why would the feds erect another Gorelick wall in this matter? Why, that would make no sense!

Of course it makes sense, if this immigration bill is about fundamentally changing the face of American society to ensure Democrat control of the nation for generations to come. If it is about actually enforcing immigration law, protecting America, border security and doing the right thing, then you're right. It makes no sense.

Oh Cap'n, my Cap'n! You call this mindless drivel a "voice of reason" because it matches the insincere spin you attempt yourself in trying to make the soft sell. In so doing you shamelessly insult the intelligence of your readership.

Perhaps unfair? Let's start with the first bit of "reason": "it helps a lot to cut the size of the haystack by 3/4" -- RMBN as quoted in your post.

The CBO estimates only a 25% reduction in illegal immigration. That's cutting the size of the haystack by only 1/4. A lack of proficiency with math is hardly a "voice of reason". For more "reason" from RMBN I give you the quote from the above replies:

"Regular law enforcement can then worry more about resident aliens with no visible means of support. What exactly are they doing to earn a living?"

Should one call such mindless questioning "reason"? Obviously they, and the 75% that don't acquiesce to the Z-Visa, would continue to do the same thing they are doing now. Even more depressing is that this wonderful font of reason believes that LEO's will magically attain the ability to find the future undocumented better than the present undocumented.

So said, if LEO's could so valiantly root out the undocumented in the future they could surely do so now. And all without the need for a massive beauracratic boondoggle.

Honesty remains too much to ask of salesman pushing their tonics.

No, I call him reasonable because he's been commenting here for over 3 years and he has done so in a reasonable manner. Calling people names and deriding them because you have one point of disagreement with them is, on the other hand, not reasonable.

re: viability of databases

There are innumerable databases available today that are 'for hire'. One to one marketing has long used these things commercially.
The average person (non marketeer) would be astounded at what is avaialable for a price about the smallest details of your life.

Any organization with enough loot can find out what you drive, where you live, how big your mortgage is, how many people in your family, what you eat, where you shop, how many miles are on your car, the list is endless.

Every time you do an above the board transaction today it is recorded and stored somewhere. If you think your vendor relationships aren't for sale you are naive.

A national ID would probably be nothing less than redundant for most folks. The problem is that for people who operate under the table (a lot of illegals do this, duh?) using cash, nothing is recorded (or reported to the IRS).

The same people who operate under the table now will do so going forward regardless of the changes to the law. Why? They net more money. Their employers net more money. Their customers net more money.

The identity 'issue' is a red herring! Legit people are easily identified right now. Illegit people are not identifiable and will remain so.

Another thing about identifying employers with 'issues'. I've had occasion to visit many companies in the normal course of business. If I walk in the door of a company in, say, New Hampshire, and everyone in the place is speaking Spanish except the boss, would I have reason to believe something is fishy? Wouldn't the boss think something is fishy?

Your expectation would be that the employee diversity would have a rough equivalence to the diversity of the surrounding community, eh? Don't we even insist on this vis a vis affirmative action?

You could reasonably infer fishiness. Count noses. Count payroll checks. Count withholding payments. Bingo, done, out of there in under 15 minutes with enough info to hang a crooked employer and all of his illegal employees. Don't even look at I9s. They're a joke.

It's not hard if you really want to do it!

Style over substance? Cap'n, I applaud the honesty of your stated preference for pleasant falsehoods over hard truths. After all, everyone would rather ignore uncomfortable facts by citing the cut of the messenger's jib; but few have the integrity to admit so as forthrightly as yourself.

"other than for the enforcement and administration of the immigration laws, anti-terrorism laws,.."

Let's see now. The cops pull over a speeder who looks Hispanic. Suspecting a violation of immigration laws, they query the data base...
A suspicious vagrant with a backpack is detained near a gasoline station. Suspected of terrorism, the data base is queried...

You can suspect nearly anyone of being an illegal immigrant or of being a terrorist...

David Starr

THIS IS NOT KNOWN BY MANY, EVEN THOSE IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act mandated a system to to collect records of the arrival and departure of every foreign visitor to the United States. After 911, provisions of the PATRIOT Act required that this be expanced to include biometric ID and that the system, to be called US-VISIT, be interoperable with law enforcement databases. In theory, foreign nationals who hold visas are required to provide fingerprints and photographs at the port of entry. Note that this is under current law, law which has been on the books for a long time and is STILL not in effect. It is not something which requires any new legislation at all.

This system is years past the date it was supposed to be completed and is still not ready. There is no sign that it will ever be ready. (Posted by: flenser at June 16, 2007 11:59 AM )

Other things not known or ignored are:

The Social Security Database is next to worthless. It has needed to be updated and purged forever.

The USCIS (
...massive potential for immigration benefit fraud inside the Citizenship and Immigration Services [USCIS or CIS] division of the Department of Homeland Security [DHS]. is corrupt, incompetent, inefficient. and has been made even moreso (as if that were possible) when it was taken over by Homeland Security.

READ a few of the links provided above and you will come away flabergasted and pissed.

But this is no secret to those that are in our Congress, at least to most of them, some have no idea at all what is going on in their own government.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

Who woulda thunk ......that the arguments by supporters of this monstrosity, SB1348 Illegal Alien Amnesty and Guest Worker Full Employment Act of 2007 ..............would try to schmooze Republican support .............by highlighting the value of a proposed data base on illegal immigrants ......*L*.

This is an amnesty bill ......as any $5000 fine paid by illegal aliens ..........would clearly be offset by ....the earned income tax credit received by the same illegal alien.

If they were to score this bill by the GAO ............they will have to cut a lot of spending .......and/or raise taxes to get it passed.

I have been looking, so far in vain, for anybody to remember that there ARE already laws on the book supposed to handle this.

In the mid 1990ies all us employers got a very official letter (or two) from the feds threatening all kind of penalties if we did NOT verify that a potential employee had a legitimate right for employment.

As far as I know this is still on the books (Laws never....Well hardly ever gets thrown off the books), but nobody seems to enforce it.

This is two step, First secure the borders - then deal with what is here.

One gets the impression that this is more about securing voters (illegal or not) for the ruling class.

peace

Hejde

Thanks Papa Ray. Nobody else had a response. Your response was that SSA records are wothless. Probably so, but probably 80% accurate.

I again ask, does anybody have a good reason why the SSA no match program cannot be used as a start for enforcing immigration?

Isnt 80% better than nothing? We all know that I-9s are worthless. I have completed probably 5,000 for new employees.

Let me ask the Captain. Can you help me understand or take a stand on my concern.

The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act mandated a system to to collect records of the arrival and departure of every foreign visitor to the United States. After 911, provisions of the PATRIOT Act required that this be expanced to include biometric ID and that the system, to be called US-VISIT, be interoperable with law enforcement databases. In theory, foreign nationals who hold visas are required to provide fingerprints and photographs at the port of entry. Note that this is under current law, law which has been on the books for a long time and is STILL not in effect. It is not something which requires any new legislation at all.

This system is years past the date it was supposed to be completed and is still not ready. There is no sign that it will ever be ready. (Posted by: flenser at June 16, 2007 11:59 AM )

I beg to differ here. US-VISIT currently collects finger prints and photos of non-citizens entering the US at all points of entry, land and air. They also collect fingerprints at all US consulates for visa applicants. They process 225,000 entries a day. Their database holds records on 73 million people. They can return watchlist hits (criminals, terrorists, etc) to a border post in 10 seconds. They currently do not collect information on people leaving the country.

See www.dhs.gov/us-visit

Just read the Koran. Guess what? The problem is Islam, not some radical sect that has highjacked a...ahem, peaceful religion.
We could kill two birds: end illegal immigration and end the WoT (assuming the goal is to protect US citizens from violent death perpetrated by Muslims).

1) Ban immigration from countries with majority Muslim populations.

2) Deport immigrant Muslims currently here.

3) Put the NG troops, who are currently fighting the followers of a 7th Century barbarian, on our own border.

Wow! I not only ended the WoT and fulfilled Art. IV Sec 4 of the Constitution, but I also did it in less than 300 pages.

PS: I also save the taxpayers TRILLION$$$.