Captain's Quarters -

So what can be done? Little surprises me anymore about the halls of Congress, but this seems like a pretty big deal. Maybe it isn't and it happens regularly, but that seems pretty unlikely. Was the vote recorded on CSPAN and would such a record reveal an impropriety?

Seriously, what could the "offended" caucus do? Not show up until this matter is exposed/resolved (notably just before the August recess) to make political hay of this and hope that a quorum cannot be reached to conduct business?

According to the clerk's office, the vote began just after 10:30 and the House recessed after the kerfuffle at 11:18 (see summary here). The Corner posted a minute of video, but it's not really conclusive. The answer to AnonymousDrivel's question is yes, it's on CSPAN, and what we need is to see probably everything from about 10:45 through 11:15 to really asses what happened. Terrible form by the dems if true; the majority always plays procedural games (holding open votes long after the voting period, for example), a time-honored tradition of parliamentary bad manners, but this seems an order of magnitude worse.

One "benefit" of demonizing George W. Bush (aka "Bushitler") and his party is, when Democrats pretend they're "fighting evil," then nothing is beyond the pale. Democrats can justify their Machiavellian schemes by asserting moral superiority. Then to top it off, they accuse the very people they’re sucker-punching of being duplicitous. The Democrat leaders are about as shameless as it's possible to be--without drawing lightning bolts out of the sky.

what is the tipping point for the dims where they acknowledge what a despicable, shameless party they are?

Who would have thoughts the Donks' promises to "change the culture of corruption" and adress the level of (un)ethical behavior in DC contemplated their making things worse?

Repulsive and unnecessary, absolutely. Totalitarianism, hardly. Wee bit hysterical this am Capt'n?

If there's evidence that this happened (and C-SPAN would be able to tell us for sure) then I'm thinking this is an impeachable offense for the entire House Democrat leadership.

At the very least if this is true, then Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and Jim Clyburn should step down *immediately* from the House leadership. This would be, in my eyes, a high crime. Expunging a vote they lost is the kind of thing you expect to see from a former Soviet bloc country or a South American dictatorship. In America, the punishment for this has to be swift and decisive...if it's true.

That should be a no-brainer to determine. And if so, the Democrats are politically dead far beyond 2008.

Does anyone here think the Democrats will open an investigation, hearings or impeachment proceedings on Nancy the way they have with Alberto Gonzales?

Who would have thoughts the Donks' promises to "change the culture of corruption" and adress the level of (un)ethical behavior in DC contemplated their making things worse?

Who would have thoughts the Donks' promises to "change the culture of corruption" and adress the level of (un)ethical behavior in DC contemplated their making things worse?

<raises hand>

But then, I had that inkling in 1992 when Bill Clinton was promising "change" and I was asking people how they could be sure it would be for the better?

Sadly, you can get away with much worse than this when you control the media.

Democrats believe rules are for other people.

And just when you thought the ratings of Congress could not get any lower, the Dems pull another embarassing escapade. The Republican roars from the chamber floor was almost deafening, and the blank look on the presiding chairman was priceless.

Zogby's recent release of the approval numbers on congress's conduct regarding the war (3%), echos the fact that the "change in direction" party has lost it's way. While pandering to the radical left, (and assuming this is their base), the democrats have alienated much of the moderate core by concentrating on investigations and oversights with their "get Bush at any cost" mentality.

What happened on the floor of the House last night was an abberation of the misdirection the democratic party is in. Doing the "peoples work" has become secondary.

yes, i to am shocked there is gambling going on.......

shriek as the repubs may there is absolutely nothing they can do about it in real terms. why? because they don't know how. collectively the repubs are "bush" in spades and have been for at least the last forty years.
good ideas with no clue how to speak about them except behind closed doors.

the only thing that holds dems back is themselves. there is no stunt they can't talk themselves out of if they put their minds to it. with the aid and support of the MSM they can even get blow jobs from interns and still get elected. actually the repubs should be thankful that the dems follow the rules most of the time because if they did not there is very little they could do about it except pick up their ball and go home like they did last night!

Was this issue around back when the GOP had a majority in both houses? Isn't this like the saying from the Talmud" When you have a mouse it's the hole's fault" Couldn't this have been avoided in the 6 years prior to the Democrats gaining control? I'm not condoning what the current Majority pulled, but honestly is this an issue that appeared since Nov. of 06? I think the GOP left the hole open.

Sadly, you can get away with much worse than this when you control the media.

Indeed.

If the parties were reversed, this would be front page news everywhere, we'd be seeing a line of Democrats on the teevee railing against this to Olbermouth, the NYTimes, and the WaPo.

The nutroots would be all over this for months. Yet, today they are strangely silent (when not trying to pillage Bill O'Reilly, the MNDOT, or kissing Kos's ring.)

Lightwave, unless you're using the term in a more colloquial sense (which I think unlikely because of your reference to "high crimes"), officers of the House can't be impeached, for at least two reasons. As a pure question of formalism, only the President, veep and other "civil officers" of the United States are impeachable. Art. II sect. 4. It's well-established (and both textually and structurally clear) that officers of Congress aren't "civil officers of the United States" and thus aren't impeachable. And second, as a more practical question, the impeachment power is reserved to the House, and in practical terms, to the House majority, which controls what business comes to the floor. Perhaps Pelosi et al ought to resign, but there's no formal process to force them out.

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 08/03/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day...so check back often.

Perhaps Pelosi et al ought to resign, but there's no formal process to force them out.

That's rather unfortunate, Simon, but thank you for clearing that up.

My point stands however that the Democrat leadership should resign from their positions if not the House altogether.

Still no mention of this on the MSM or the nutroots...big surprise.

Doncha know ............ the means justify the ends. Laws and rules and procedures are more akin to recommendations.

See middle of page 1, the Dimocrat rule book.

Before they get on too high horses, didn't the Republicans keep the voting open for an additional THREE hours to pass the Medicaid Prescription bill?

"Before they get on too high horses, didn't the Republicans keep the voting open for an additional THREE hours to pass the Medicaid Prescription bill?"

TRY to understand this:

* When voting is OPEN, people may change their votes
* Once voting is CLOSED (over, gaveled shut) then the voting is DONE and the tally is recorded. That vote counts. This is the basis of a representative legislature.

The Republicans did a bad thing in holding a vote open, but they RESPECTED THE VOTES CAST.

The Democrats did an infinitely worse thing in IGNORING THE ACTUAL VOTE THAT HAD TAKEN PLACE and subsituting a total they preferred, then pretending the actual vote hadn't taken place.

The Democrats' actions just officially turned the House Of Representatives into the Ministry Of Truth -- only the things they decide to allow are official history, and anything else is removed as if it had never been.

If you can't grasp that distinction, then you are either thicker than two short planks, or so partisan that facts mean nothing to you, and are, as such, a waste of time.

Thank you and good night.

At the very least if this is true, then Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer and Jim Clyburn should step down *immediately* from the House leadership. This would be, in my eyes, a high crime. Expunging a vote they lost is the kind of thing you expect to see from a former Soviet bloc country or a South American dictatorship. In America, the punishment for this has to be swift and decisive...if it's true.

Republicans expressed no reservations about Hastert holding voting open for hours while Tom Delay blackmailed House members hiding in the coatroom to change their votes (remember Nick Smith?) They didn't have any problem with unplugging the mics in Democratic hearings, or even denying the use of conference rooms.

If Pelosi was anywhere near as petty and vindictive as Hastert was as Speaker, GOP members would be given cubicles in the dank basement next to the water heaters instead of an office. They'd show up to find their parking spaces revoked.

Calling for resignations? Where were you for the last 12 years as they treated my reps like dirt and broke every rule and basic decorum to do it?

That said, I didn't agree with these tactics then and I don't agree with them now.

So we are left asking: What legal recourse is there when a party completely breaks house rules?

If the Republicans decided to push the issue to the limit, what is the limit?

Is there any recourse legally to which this could be decided if everything was caught on camera?

Sorry edverb, holding a vote open for hours is a far cry from closing a vote and then expunging it from the record, but I guess you didn't see pedantic's post

Frankly, what's stopping the Democrats from doing this to any and every vote now? Oops, it was a "mistake."

No it wasn't, they GOP won a vote because the Dems didn't pay attention, so the Dems broke the rules just to get their way. 12 years of GOP control *never* resulted in *anything* like that.

When you do nothing but rail against your foes and accuse them of every dirty trick in the book, you run the risk of becoming everything you rail against and worse.

The Dems are gone in 08. This seals it. This needs to be brought up in every House election in 08, and I bet the GOP can take a huge chunk of those 435 seats just based on this corruption alone.

Elections have consequences.

How does it feel to be on the other end?

Better get used to it.

"So we are left asking: What legal recourse is there when a party completely breaks house rules? If the Republicans decided to push the issue to the limit, what is the limit? Is there any recourse legally to which this could be decided if everything was caught on camera?"

"Frankly, what's stopping the Democrats from doing this to any and every vote now? Oops, it was a "mistake." No it wasn't, they GOP won a vote because the Dems didn't pay attention, so the Dems broke the rules just to get their way. 12 years of GOP control *never* resulted in *anything* like that. "

ROFLMAO

What can the Repubs do?

Absolutely nothing.

The Repubs spent the last 12 years drunk with power.

Now, all you can do is to run home crying to your Mama.

Payback's a bitch.

I don't think you understand how serious this is. If the Democrats in the U.S. Congress are now falsifying votes, and erasing the record proving falsification, we've lost our democracy.

If this becomes regular practice in the U.S. Congress, it'll become time to "alter or abolish" the U.S. government, and replace it with a representative democracy.

2 wrongs don't make a right, but 3 rights make a left!
Looky here! Both parties are guilty of dirty tricks, foul play, lying, cheating and stealing (did I leave anything out?). BUT, when a party sweeps into power with a country-wide mandate (sarcastic? Me??) and they make all manner of pledges which are to take place supposedly in the frist 100 hours, they can't complain if people want to hold them to those promises.

Dems have learned quickly from the Repubs.

When asked about the vote, Pelosi claimed executive privilege and stated that she had no recall of the incident.

It seems that there was some kind of vote list made, but no one knows who put whose name on it..

LMAO

"Better get used to it.
Posted by: Continuum at August 3, 2007 3:33 PM"
Get used to nullifying votes and falsifying congressional records? That's NOT a good idea. What's next, voiding local elections?

Ray, Ray, Ray, you don't understand.

Continuum cannot actually point to a single case where the GOP did this, but it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. Good progressives like Continuum just "know" that the GOP is guilty of all evil things. Facts be damned.

It ws not that long ago in 2006 before the congressional elections that all I heard from many conservative bloggers was negativity about the GOP. We needed change some of them charged. We need to teach the GOP a lesson, it will be good if the democrats are in control. This type of clamoring from so called conservatives. Well, elections have consequences as we all can see. I yearn for the days before 2006 myself. This current Congress is a disgrace. Worst in hsitory and most irresponsibile. Maybe conservative bloggers should think about those apples before the next election.

From Michele Malkin:

"In the past three months, Democratic presidential candidates raised an estimated $81.2 million compared to about $46.6 million for Republicans.

“It’s not a good sign for the Republicans at this point,” said Jan Baran, a campaign finance expert and former general counsel of the Republican National Committee. “They’ve got to be hoping that they can energize their base as well as independents between now and November of 2008, and if they can’t, they’re going to be in trouble.”

Looks like you neocons won't even have a 100 of your buddies to stomp their feet out of Congress in another 18 months.

Even your base no longer believes your nonsense and lies.

Here is the way it went down folks....

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/TomDeLay/2007/08/03/house_democrats_fail_democracy_101

Everyone on here is calling for Congress to be removed, saying if this is true this will sink the Dems in 08....what you all have to understand is that as long as the MSM supports the Dems, they can do whatever they want. The average voter pays practically no attention. They don't read these blogs. They have vague preconceived ideas that they glean from casual glances at the newspaper and stories they hear on the rock or country music station, who basically rip and read the UPI/AP feed. This is why the US attorneys firing story is STILL going on although it means nothing. The MSM controls what the average person thinks. The Dems know this. That is why they do what they do, they won't be called to account in the media, except by talk radio and these blogs. For the bad politicians to be stopped, they have to try something that is so basically bad that it can be grasped easily by those who don't pay attention. See the Dubai ports deal and the immigration bill. Repubs have learned that if they do what the Dems want, like spend more, they will also get a free ride from the media. So they are encouraged to not be conservatives. It's a race to see what collapses first, the MSM from lack of ratings, or the country.

It shouldn't make any difference (*cough* contnuum) which party was the culprit here. If you're giddy about what happened in the House (or just pretending to be) that's pretty sad for you.

Do I have this right -- there is no way to enforce the House's rules? No law was broken?

Now, now, Continuum.don't you worry your pretty little head about our fund raising. when the pedal hits the metal, get out of the way..