Captain's Quarters -

Just a slight correction. There is no parole on a federal rap. If he gets sentenced to three years, he'll do three years (less a little bit).

You asked, "Can the NFL afford to put Vick back on the field?"

NO!

He's done in the NFL.

Oh, he'll be back. If you have talent, you'll get to play, no matter what you've done. I can't see players who commit crimes against humans allowed to play and Michael Vick not allowed to do so. He'll be back on the field someday.

Against humans... maybe he would be forgiven by some. But to do what he did to dogs, I don't think so.
I think the Falcons will let him go and I don't think anybody else would step forward to sign him. And if it happens, I'll be one less fan of the NFL.

If Vick can still win games, some owner somewhere will hire him. Pro athletes are like movie stars, and get away with just as much crap that would put you and me up to our necks in ant hill sand. Would that were not so, but it is.

Vick had no choice after his co-conspirators plead out.

What Mr. Vick does in the future will determine what I think of him in the future, but, right now, he is a sinner who has asked for forgiveness, but has yet to perform his penance. I'm reserving judgement.

Gary has it right. We are a forgiving nation where contrition has a way of allowing the fallen to get up. Here, however, his violent torture against man's best friend (even if pitbulls) along with the gambling component make him tarnished beyond repair. How can the NFL righteously say they will allow a criminal and a gambler onto the field to be a representative of their game? Yes, we sometimes look away at tawdry behavior and allow stars to shine again. In this instance, the target demographic won't avert their eyes and this athlete won't see the NFL gain. Maybe another league, but not any league with a shred of decency.

I hope Vick regains a larger sense of humanity and that he finds some peace after his penance. Tragically, he ruined his career due to his callousness along with other motivations. Just a stunning development no matter how one looks at it.

Da Raiders might -- Al Davis likes the outlaw image. But really, he is too toxic to put on the field. Quarterbacks are usually the face of the franchise (to overuse that phrase) and there are too many of us dog lovers out there who'd be upset if he was our team's Q-back. Vick's going to have to become a vegetarian Christian in order to come back.

Two years without playing, or even working out with the practice team while injury rehabbing, are going to diminish his skills a lot.

What Vick's hoping for, is by pleading guilty to the federal charges, the State of Virginia (where his sentence would be a whole lot longer) will lose interest in his case after he's spent a few years in prison on his federal charges. If Virginia convicts him on several counts of animal torture, he'll be a little old man by the time he gets out.

I'm waiting to see what kind of weaseling the NFL comes up with to avoid having to give him the boot.

They should ban him, of course, but I can see them going to extreme lengths to avoid doing so.

I am guessing that when he is ready to come back there will be enough quarterback talent out there that an owner will not want to have to put up with the animal welfare protests that would follow Vick any place he plays. Dog fighting is simply a too inhumane activity where the only reward for winning is getting to live till the next fight. Not the millions a winning NFL quarterback reaps. To spend his money on this type of activity is all that needs to be said about Vick's basic character,

If he did come back what do you suppose the other players would do to him? I bet there are plenty of dog loving players in the NFL.

Da Raiders might -- Al Davis likes the outlaw image. But really, he is too toxic to put on the field. Quarterbacks are usually the face of the franchise (to overuse that phrase) and there are too many of us dog lovers out there who'd be upset if he was our team's Q-back. Vick's going to have to become a vegetarian Christian in order to come back.

Two years without playing, or even working out with the practice team while injury rehabbing, are going to diminish his skills a lot.

Gah, dunno how I got a double post -- sorry about that.

One additional thought:
These for guys didn't operate in a vacuum, who did they gamble with and whose dogs did they fight?

"No one doubts Vick's talent. "

What talent would that be?

Killing dogs? Training dogs to kill dogs?

Gambling?

Inquiring minds....

Larry Sheldon,

That would be "Public Relations".

Vick's about 90% media hype and 10% football player IMHO.

He's impressive to watch run down the field, but his passing game was never above average.

The only thing he really has going for him on the field is his speed and I doubt he'll be able to retain it after a year or so behind bars.

"I'm waiting to see what kind of weaseling the NFL comes up with to avoid having to give him the boot."

The new NFL commissioner is reported to be massively unenthused by thugs like Vick, no matter how well they play, and actually willing to suspend/ban people. They may very well give him the boot.

I have to agree with Brandon on this. While I would place the proportion at 60/40, Ron Mexico has not lived up to the hype. Although I do believe that he is the black Bobby Douglass.
He will not only be 3-4 years older when eligible to return (combined Fed and Roger Goodell time), he would have to find a team and a system willing to accomodate his sandlot style of play. He will never be able to run a West Coast offense with any level of proficiency.
Factor in the public relations component of this and he is, for all practical purposes, done.

He'll never be back in the NFL. If he spends three years in prison, he'll be too far out of the loop. Not only would he have to prove himself all over again, he would have to train for a a few years just to make up for lost time. I don't think playing ball in prison will give him the practice he would need to stay ahead of others, it'll have a detrimental effect on his skills.

It would be at least 5 years (three in prison and two in continual training after he gets out) before he could even think about coming back. He would have one hell of a time trying to stage a comeback after all that time. There's far to many new people waiting in the wings for him to ever make it back, unless it's in arena football. The NFL will have moved on by the time he's ready to get back in the game and he'll find he's been left behind. It's all he deserves anyways

Have an abortion, get a parade. Kill a dog, go to jail. I love America.

His viability as a pro athlete is probably going to depend on how remorseful and repentent he seems. He gets with the right PR person, does a seemingly sincere mea culpa, maybe comes up with some kind of rationale to explain his brutality and convinces everyone that he is now appalled by his own actions and will live a life of continuous penitence.

He pulls that off and can still scramble and throw the football to an open receiver? He'll play in the NFL again. This is assuming, of course, that he doesn't get shanked in the yard by some fellow convict dog lover.

He could donate his entire net worth to PETA and he'd still rightfully be a pariah in the court of public opinion. White America is willing to accept (and celebrate) a lot of the thug life, but not dog fighting.

He'll be a "remember when" 30 or so years from now when he's found frozen to death in a homeless camp under J. Random Overpass. He'll never even get so far as another NFL training camp.

"He could donate his entire net worth to PETA and he'd still rightfully be a pariah in the court of public opinion."

Well I don't think PETA would be the right vehicle but I do believe that he has a chance (albeit a very slim one) of forgiveness if he can come up with the right story and the right demeanor. I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just saying there's at least a small chance it could happen. Memories fade, he will have served his time, blah blah. But it all comes down to how he comes across and how much people buy into the idea that he's truly a changed man.

This is probably a moot discussion because I somehow can't see him coming out of prison with his football playing skills intact anyway. And maybe he really will be a changed man when he comes out and will want to do something more meaningful with his life than throw a football around every Sunday.

Quite honestly, Vick could have sold crack on the street and gotten more sympathy than he's getting from torturing and killing those dogs.

And I for one hope we never see him again - if nothing else, just to serve as an object less on the black me out there who think the "thug life" is cool. No, it's not. See?

Quite honestly, Vick could have sold crack on the street and gotten more sympathy than he's getting from torturing and killing those dogs.

And I for one hope we never see him again - if nothing else, just to serve as an object less on the black me out there who think the "thug life" is cool. No, it's not. See?

Have an abortion, get a parade. Kill a dog, go to jail. I love America.

change the law and stop moaning and groaning.

Monkei,

You want us to allow killing dogs? Wow.

Actually, Congress changed the law for the federal prison system during the Clinton administration. Now you have to do something like 80% of your chit before you become eligible for parole. "Good time" no longer exists at the federal level.

If Vick gets three, he'll do over two and a half. The gambling - which is the only reason to engage in dog fighting, unless you really want to see Lassie eat Snoppy so bad that you'll travel to New Jersey to see it - will get him banned from the NFL for life.

Somewhere out there Pete Rose is laughing his ass off.

The federal guidelines for this crime is 12-18 months. Although the judge could rule for more or even less time. He will have to serve at least 80% of the time he is sentenced to. There is no parole for Federal time, but there is credit for time served.Also, the state charges, if pursued by Virginia are far less severe than Federal. Sentencing guidelines in Virginia for this crime (animal cruelty) call for 4 months. Vick's biggest obstacle in returning to the NFL will not be prison time, or if a team will take a chance on him(Atlanta's fan base of 52% African-Americans overwhelmingly support him),but what kind of suspension the commissioner decides to impose.

I agree with a few others here, Vick's career in the NFL is absolutely over.

Any team that even thinks about hiring him would go through such a bloodbath of horrible publicity that it would make it impossible to bring in a profit.

I actually can't imagine what kind of character it takes to do what he is charged with - and don't want to find out either. I might even consider becoming an active protester if he ever tried to play again.

My understanding is that, in the federal system, you do at least 85 percent of your time, with 15 percent possible "good time" credits.

I'm not sure he will face anything in Virginia because my understanding is also that Virginia has a statute that prohibits a state prosecution when someone has already been prosecuted federally for the same crime (so as to avoid dual-sovereignty "double jeopardy").

Skippy -- you have it backwards. Federal parole has been abolished, but good time credit is still available for most offenses (which gives prisoners an incentive to behave).

First, on a Federal conviction, you do roughly 300 days on the year.

Second, I think if Vick had been a consistent winner, then he may have made it back on the field. However, his ability to implode at the wrong moments, coupled with his gambling and heinous ways with dogs will forever have people wonder if he is point shaving.

Fans do not want that question lurking--and a team's front office would have to be beyond desperate to ignore that.

And again--this is all about a QB who was inconsistent--at best.

The NFL can not afford that. I hope he gets a life-time ban.

Patterico has a charachteristically thorough post on the sentencing guidelines for this case:

http://tinyurl.com/2e6r32

Federal charges are the least of his worries when it comes to his chances of playing again in the NFL.

Seems as though people want to look at this from a criminal standpoint - but his character that shows from this is so much worse...and will cause considerably more harm to him personally.

I'm not a fan of dog fighting, but I do care about civil rights and government intrusion. If this was just a question of how fans, the NFL or the State of Virginia wished to handle dogfighting, then I'd be happy to have Vick suffer whatever consequences there may be.

But what is totally ridiculous and the most dangerous aspect of this case is that even though apparently the Virginia AG is likely to do NOTHING, the FEDS have taken the lead in the case on very flimsy grounds that would essentially federalize ALL criminal law. Vick and his companions were indicted on the charge of:

- "traveling in interstate commerce . . . with intent to commit any crime of violence to further any unlawful activity . . . to wit: a business enterprise involving gambling in violation of [Virginia law]"

Additional charges are based on a federal law against dog fighting ventures, "if any animal in the venture has moved in interstate commerce" or a member of the venture has "travel[led] in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities".

Also, the government was preparing a superseding indictment that would have included racketeering charges!

Traditionally, virtually all criminal law has been a matter of state or local law, and there is really no basis in the Constitution for federalizing criminal law, which has been done here on the same grounds that lets the federal government meddle in EVERYTHING - a very expansive interpretation of the Commerce Clause.

What is the federal government doing interfering with what should be left to state and local prerogatives, as determined by their legislatures?

TokyoTom,

If there's federal laws being broken, then why shouldn't the feds react by going after him for breaking them?

TokyoTom wrote (August 21, 2007 4:42 AM):

Traditionally, virtually all criminal law has been a matter of state or local law, and there is really no basis in the Constitution for federalizing criminal law, which has been done here on the same grounds that lets the federal government meddle in EVERYTHING - a very expansive interpretation of the Commerce Clause.

A good point. The problem lies partially in exactly what you say: a very expansive interpretation of the Commerce Clause. IMO, the REAL problem is that, when you give the feds the power / authority to do one thing, you inevitably give them the power / authority to do other things. Many of us conservatives see this problem with Social Security: the American people gave the feds the patently unconstitutional power to get into the charity business about 75 years ago. Well! Who can argue with the feds using their power (and money) for the benevolent purpose of helping people made destitute by the Depression? The problem is that the feds have taken that power and run with it: welfare, Medicare, prescription drug benefit, etc. All benevolent purposes, to be sure... unless you think about how your taxes and the national debt are going up and up and up to fund inefficient programs that are manipulated by cynical politicians in DC for their own self-aggrandizement.

Federal highway programs... Federal law enforcement... Federal funding for education... Federal housing programs... All these things respresent "benevolent" programs that also give the feds power for, if not abuse, then at least massive inefficiency and waste.

The FBI going after Vick for dog fighting (I have to confess that I'm not too picky on how he got caught; I'm just glad that he did) is merely a symptom of a federal system that has gone waaaaaay beyond what the Founding Fathers intended. It will only stop when we all stop demanding "benevolence" from Washington.

Vick would have been better off performing late third trimester abortions. It's ok to kill babies being born, but not dogs that won't fight?
I'm not totally anti-abortion, but I think this whole case and the attention being paid to it is a really good snapshot of what has happened to the country and what used to be it values.
I mean what's the big deal? Pedophiles walk free and brag about it, parents abuse and kill their kids, kids return the favor, old people die from neglect, young kids die from neglect, and the papers are filled with a story about a guy abusing dogs. What a load.

I agree with everything in this entry, with the exception of the part about nobody disputing Vick's football talent.

I've felt for a while now that he was the most overrated player in the NFL.

Even if he got a three-year sentence, he would likely only serve a year, which could put him back on the field in 2009
No CAP, it is a federal prison. He would serve at least 2 3/4 years of a three year sentence.

I agree with the he's-done-in-the-NFL posters; Vick's gambling proclivities may not be judged a sufficiently redeeming character trait to overcome torturing and killing dogs.

Fortunately (and ironically) for Vick, with a properly supplemented diet there's a ring "sport" for which he could certainly qualify. (Vince McMahon, call your office--and pharmacist.)

Listen to the Monkey: "If it's legal, it must be OK". Kinda like slavery...right?

Tokyo and Dr J have it right. The first thing I thought of was: Why are the Feds going after him...? Why not let the State boys deal with it...? Aren’t there State laws that apply? If the State is too lenient, then follow up on the Fed charges.

It's not like the Feds couldn't be going after something that is spelled out in their charter (US Constitution)...you know, like securing the borders?

As for Vick? He through it all away…for what? What a waste.

Sentencing guidelines in Virginia for this crime (animal cruelty) call for 4 months. Vick's biggest obstacle in returning to the NFL will not be prison time

Actually, I have read that he is facing up to 40 years on the 8 counts of felony animal cruelty. His two pals have already admitted that the three of them killed the animals, so a conviction would be awfully easy to get.

Great points by TokyoTom and docjim! I've taken some really hateful comments from folks in various forums when I've tried to argue that the prosecution of Vick is not a legitimate action in a free society. Apparently, a great many people are letting their emotions about animal cruelty get the best of them. The primary concern should be the implications of this federal action for HUMAN life and freedom.

The state AG could also possibly prosecute for organized gambling, racketeering (for being behind both the dog fights and the gambling) and conspiracy for both. If the individual states where the fights took place (New Jersey, Georgia, Alabama and both Carolinas) want a bite of the apple, there's really no stopping them.

Given the outcry over Vick, I can't imagine an elected prosecutor somewhere wanting to get his licks in too. If the Grand Jury was ready to issue a superceding indictment, there's more than enough for the states to work with.

I don't think this is over by a long shot.

Skippy,

Although I'm no shyster lawyer...I don't see why you're saying the states can have some too. Why shouldn't it be the other way 'round. The states going after him...THEN let the Feds in on it.

Why do we have to make everything Federal when the states can handle it themselves...? The Feds were all over this right from the beginning. Why couldn’t they have turned their info over to the State boys and let them go after Vick and his merry men on State charges?

It’s not like there isn’t enough crime to go around….some of it SPECIFICALLY and UNIQUELY in the Federal realm…like, for instance, securing the borders.

You're asking why the "state AG" didn't go after Vick.

Generally, the Attorney General's office doesn't initiate these prosecutions; that's done by the local Commonwealth Attorney's office.

And though I do not (and cannot) know this for certain, there have been accusations that the local (in the area of the "kennels") Commonwealth Attorney wouldn't pursue it (some say because of race, some say because Vick is a local hero, some say because of both). The local cops and CA's office could have gotten the same evidence the feds did - but for some reason they did/would not. Therefore, the feds stepped in.

The local CA then said he wasn't going to do anything until the federal investigation was complete. Now he says he might bring it before a local grand jury (that's a jury of people who where on TV saying "leave the boy alone, he ain't done nothing") sometime in September. I know I ain't holding my breath.

Cybrludite, yes there is apparently a federal law against running dog fights.

My point is that such laws are fine ONLY if we want to see an all-powerful federal government and police bureaucracy, and to see states and municipalities relegated to acting as administrative arms of federal government. Such laws are based on an extremely liberal interpretation of the Commerce Clause - which wasn't intended to all the federal government to replicate or create a "UNIFORM FEDERAL CRIMINAL CODE" or somesuch, but only to create a free-trade zone within the US by make sure that no state unfairly burdened goods and services provided by other states.

There's a reason why when I was younger people used to say in discussion "Well don't make a federal case out of it!" Sadly, people no longer remember either this expression or the reason for it - now, potentially EVERYTHING is a federal case!

What does that say about the health of our liberty and Constitutional form of government?

Criminal law and its enforcement should principally be a matter of local concern. We pass things off to the feds at our great peril. Just look at how the "war on drugs" has gotten out of control. We need to start demanding a LESS intrusive federal government.