Captain's Quarters -

We may even see the answer to a question that will become very significant in the near future: what will employers do if there are literally not enough workers to go around?

It must be very hard on the "Illegals", who were established and probably worked hard for their piece of the American Dream. But the blame is squarely on the business leaders and politicians, who for many years benefited from, respectively, the cheap labor and political donations to keep it that way.
So now there is time to start thinking of the immigration reform, which would let in people who are really needed, keep the unwanted away and make society fairer and clearer. Why is it that somehow I don't feel like holding my breath?

When they disappear, the state will undoubtedly suffer a hit to the economy, especially in housing...

Not necessarily. If they conduct an effective media campaign informing legal workers that jobs are now PLENTIFUL in Arizona, one would expect new residents to flow in, filling those houses.

You're right...it will be an interesting experiment. T'would be especially interesting if the inflow to Arizona caused labor shortages in adjoining states who have refused to address the problem.

Ed defines an immigration 'hard liner' as someone who wants the law to be enforced. How archaic of them.

We see that the Liberals and criminal lovers have lied to America about one thing - and Arizona and Oklahoma are showing us the truth - how very easy it is to motivate the ILLEGAL to get lost on their own.

When the businesses get short of labor, maybe the "powers that be" will be ready to go back and do it the old fashioned way - the way America did things up til 60 years ago - with FAMILY-BUILDING VALUES in the market place.

We merely need to strip a few Liberal Social Engineering policies out of the way - the kind that are UN-NATURAL to families and communities, anyway - and were only designed to break apart families, anyway.
Things like, how easy it was for teens to be allowed to have part-time work, instead of extra-curricular activites, to help the family get by - building family first bonds, instead of stripping family bonds for selfish endeavors of no lasting value.

Everyone points to the extra-curricular as building moral values - funny, the only ones I see it building are the ones who were already dedicated to their families BEFORE the sports etc came along.
These days, with so many not having good families, I see them putting sports shoes and school trips expenses above basic necessities, and whether the one working family member has any rest or time with family.

Better for school kids to work 2-3 hours after school and help pay for their own clothes, have a strong sense of self-worth based on competence and a sense of helping the family pull together, instead of focusing on themselves.
And get the Liberal policies that crush small business out of the way. Their policies haven't been good for families, for schools, for small business, or for the penal institutions.
Make them get their junk VOTED in - CLEAN THEM OUT.

Gee - thanks to AZ, CA will suffer a huge influx of more illegal alien criminals - 90% headed right into sanctuary-city Los Angeles.

Now we will hear "crocidile tears" stories about how "families are being ripped apart" and about how poor Latinos are unable to do what they do best - "work hard"?

It's all crap. Illegal immigration is about one thing and one thing only - cheap, illegal, black market labor. It's NOT the free market at work, it's a corruption of the free market as wages are kep artifically low by increasing the size of the labor pool. It works the same whether we're talking about janitors or brain surgeons. Increase the labor pool of an occupation and wages (salaries) go down.

Every nation in the world has borders and immigration laws that it enforces but when Americans want our laws enforced, we're called "hate filled, nativists". What a joke.

We're patriots, that who were are. We put our homeland before others. It's our heritage. Our fathers and grandfathers fought for liberty, independence and a stable, orderly, rule of law. Not to let trespassers move onto your property and start working illegally under the table with a fake social security number just so some neo-cons can feel good about themselves that they are so "progressive and diversity-minded".

All crap. It comes down to whether or not we still want to be a country or not. If so, we need laws that are consistently enforced, regardless of racial or ethnicity. Si?

Now we will hear "crocidile tears" stories about how "families are being ripped apart" and about how poor Latinos are unable to do what they do best - "work hard"?

It's all crap. Illegal immigration is about one thing and one thing only - cheap, illegal, black market labor. It's NOT the free market at work, it's a corruption of the free market as wages are kep artifically low by increasing the size of the labor pool. It works the same whether we're talking about janitors or brain surgeons. Increase the labor pool of an occupation and wages (salaries) go down.

Every nation in the world has borders and immigration laws that it enforces but when Americans want our laws enforced, we're called "hate filled, nativists". What a joke.

We're patriots, that who were are. We put our homeland before others. It's our heritage. Our fathers and grandfathers fought for liberty, independence and a stable, orderly, rule of law. Not to let trespassers move onto your property and start working illegally under the table with a fake social security number just so some neo-cons can feel good about themselves that they are so "progressive and diversity-minded".

All crap. It comes down to whether or not we still want to be a country or not. If so, we need laws that are consistently enforced, regardless of racial or ethnicity. Si?

I expect Arizona is in for a difficult adjustment to its economy over the next couple of years. This will include schools, hospitals and other public services in addition to the ones Ed mentioned. After that, I expect Arizona to do very well.

Now we will hear "crocidile tears" stories about how "families are being ripped apart" and about how poor Latinos are unable to do what they do best - "work hard"?

It's all crap. Illegal immigration is about one thing and one thing only - cheap, illegal, black market labor. It's NOT the free market at work, it's a corruption of the free market as wages are kep artifically low by increasing the size of the labor pool. It works the same whether we're talking about janitors or brain surgeons. Increase the labor pool of an occupation and wages (salaries) go down.

Every nation in the world has borders and immigration laws that it enforces but when Americans want our laws enforced, we're called "hate filled, nativists". What a joke.

We're patriots, that who were are. We put our homeland before others. It's our heritage. Our fathers and grandfathers fought for liberty, independence and a stable, orderly, rule of law. Not to let trespassers move onto your property and start working illegally under the table with a fake social security number just so some neo-cons can feel good about themselves that they are so "progressive and diversity-minded".

All crap. It comes down to whether or not we still want to be a country or not. If so, we need laws that are consistently enforced, regardless of racial or ethnicity. Si?

Ed defines an immigration 'hard liner' as someone who wants the law to be enforced. How archaic of them.

Now we will hear "crocidile tears" stories about how "families are being ripped apart" and about how poor Latinos are unable to do what they do best - "work hard"?

It's all crap. Illegal immigration is about one thing and one thing only - cheap, illegal, black market labor. It's NOT the free market at work, it's a corruption of the free market as wages are kep artifically low by increasing the size of the labor pool. It works the same whether we're talking about janitors or brain surgeons. Increase the labor pool of an occupation and wages (salaries) go down.

Every nation in the world has borders and immigration laws that it enforces but when Americans want our laws enforced, we're called "hate filled, nativists". What a joke.

We're patriots, that who were are. We put our homeland before others. It's our heritage. Our fathers and grandfathers fought for liberty, independence and a stable, orderly, rule of law. Not to let trespassers move onto your property and start working illegally under the table with a fake social security number just so some neo-cons can feel good about themselves that they are so "progressive and diversity-minded".

All crap. It comes down to whether or not we still want to be a country or not. If so, we need laws that are consistently enforced, regardless of racial or ethnicity. Si?

Ed defines an immigration 'hard liner' as someone who wants the law to be enforced. How archaic of them.

Can't they return once they get legal documentation (green card)? The whole issue is with undocumented aliens. I predict that many businesses in Arizona will work to resolve this by having a system set up to get the alien workers in to the state legally.

If Arizona stays the course with this law the "free market" will work out all the details. Yes there will be several bumps and groans, as a junky that detoxes will tell you, but the rewards will be well worth it.

Longer term the country with the big problems will be Mexico when thousands of illegals return home and demand the long over due changes to the Mexican way of doing things.

And last but not least blue collar wages may finally start to go up. In some trades it has been over twenty years......

Posted by TomB | August 27, 2007 7:40 AM

***************
#1) The person who does wrong assesses their own situation and makes up their own mind - NOBODY FORCED THEM TO BREAK THE LAW. The shame is upon THEMSELVES.

#2) Others do help create an environment to promote behavior - however, you blame Business here - and yet we SEE CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED that the GOVERNMENT who has the ultimate responsibility to DISCOURAGE law-breaking ONLY HAD TO SIGN ONE BILL to get the illegals to flee.

It was nothing that BUSINESS did, to make them leave.

The GOVERNMENT quit providing a friendly environment for an unhealthy growth of criminal conduct.

The government can RETURN America to a family-building small business GROWTH policies environment.

EVEN if they have to undo their great SOCIALIST strides to do so.

Or do you want to pretend you know nothing of the LAWS that the Government CHANGED WITHOUT VOTES, 50 years ago, that stripped small business of likely NATIVE employees, in the first place.

Rose says:
"the way America did things up til 60 years ago"
"Things like, how easy it was for teens to be allowed to have part-time work, instead of extra-curricular activites, to help the family get by - building family first bonds, instead of stripping family bonds for selfish endeavors of no lasting value."

Not so. Sixty-one years ago I worked under the table because of misbegotten child labor laws. Next year I was fourteen and got a social security card and made several times as much per hour.

What a novel concept, enforce exisiting laws. I've always maintained illegals would self-deport if the government got off their dead asses and started cracking down of SSAN card fraud. Now if they just start nailing employers of illegals.

If the economic situation were to deteriorate, then just maybe this do-nothing Congress will get their act together on sensible immigration reform.

Simple solution to labor shortage - increase legal immigration.

Any negative hit on the economy I regard as the price we have to pay for our indulgence of pandering and incompetent politicians. It is a price worth paying. It is a lesson we must learn from, correct, and resolve to prevent.

As was said in an earlier comment, these illegal aliens can return and live the American dream. All they have to do is follow the law. And that journey starts on the foreign side of our border.

I live in AZ and I am collecting signatures on two petitions right now. The one is for a proposition for employer sanctions much like the one already passed. The differnce is that the Gov. couldn't dissect this one. We are afraid that our governor will gut the current bill and it will be worthless. She has a record of being pro-illegal alien so we are dubious when it comes to her will to do what is right especially when it comes to illegals.
In the meantime, it will be interesting to see just what really does happen with this current bill. I have already seen some positive effects, like not as many illegals standing on the corners like whores, waiting for a John. If I had to go to the ER, just maybe I wouldn't have to wait for hours behind the hordes of illegals getting their free medical treatment while I have to mortgage my house for any treatment I would get. Maybe my friends and family won't have to be the victims of their crimes anymore. The list goes on.
What the article doesn't mention is that the quality of life for the legal citizens of AZ will improve and you can't put a price on that.

I live in AZ and I am collecting signatures on two petitions right now. The one is for a proposition for employer sanctions much like the one already passed. The differnce is that the Gov. couldn't dissect this one. We are afraid that our governor will gut the current bill and it will be worthless. She has a record of being pro-illegal alien so we are dubious when it comes to her will to do what is right especially when it comes to illegals.
In the meantime, it will be interesting to see just what really does happen with this current bill. I have already seen some positive effects, like not as many illegals standing on the corners like whores, waiting for a John. If I had to go to the ER, just maybe I wouldn't have to wait for hours behind the hordes of illegals getting their free medical treatment while I have to mortgage my house for any treatment I would get. Maybe my friends and family won't have to be the victims of their crimes anymore. The list goes on.
What the article doesn't mention is that the quality of life for the legal citizens of AZ will improve and you can't put a price on that.

Rose,
Opportunity for illegal immigration was clearly created by business, supported by politicians (you heard about lobbying, I gather), in stride to lower the pay, but also to find workers. Now businesses are using a simple escape route laying off the “hot” workers. I simply empathize with the side, which is not the only guilty party in something which is going on for 25 years, but seem to be carrying most of the burden. Mind you, the drug dealers and criminals are not really affected by this new policy, only people trying to build (yes, illegally) some kind a normal life. So how’s about asking the businesses to share some of the pain? And how’s about giving temp working visas not only to Indian software developers?

It is a mistake to believe that it is just the illegals themselves, and their employers who have benefited from what has gone on. The consumers have benefited too. We have enjoyed cheap lawn services, cheap hotel rooms, cheaper homes, etc, that we otherwise would not have had. Few in America have not benefited from the labor that the illegals have done cheaply.

I predict that Arizona (and its cities) will have just as many non-school social service bills as they did before. But with less state tax revenue to pay for it. It's nice of them to perform this little experiment for the rest of us though, evaluating the trade offs.

I have a question about the "does not match" notice.

Some illegal(s) borrowed Jane Doe's id/ssn, and the government tells one employer that it "does not match". Potentially we have one illegal worker, and the real Jane Doe, plus their respective employers.

What does the real Jane Doe have to do to prove her own identity to her own employer, if the illegal worker thinks he/she can "tie up the system" by protesting/challenging the "does not match" notice?

I live in Las Vegas, NV, home of the casino industry which is full of illegals. The Culinary Workers Union takes all sorts of phony documentation and brings 'em right on board. The Carpenters Union here recently had a scandal of its own since one of its managers was accepting bribes of about $250/illegal to bring them on board. With a city that depends heavily on the service and construction industry, it will be most interesting to watch what happens as of January 1. I'm assuming that the casino industry will just continue to thumb their collective noses at the federal gov't and conduct business as usual! We're talking about 50,000 jobs here in casinos alone... and this industry is too greedy to pay a decent wage to hire anyone other than an illegal...and oh yeah, illegals are killing the social services out here... hospitals, schools, section 8 housing, etc.

They rent houses and apartments, shop for food, and consume just like anyone else does in Arizona. When they disappear, the state will undoubtedly suffer a hit to the economy ...

How much will Arizona's economy save by not having to educate illegal children in Spanish, by not having to feed illegal children who aren't getting sufficient nourishment at home, by not having to provide free health care for them, and by not having them use other infrastructure systems like roads, freeways and bridges (that are now failing, possibly from overuse).

Look at the statistics some time for health care provided for free to illegals. A majority of them have either diabetes or high blood pressure, both of which require constant monitoring and daily doses of expensive medicines ... paid for by the American taxpayer. Also a huge percentage have symptoms of mental health problems, including depression -- which, wouldn't you be depressed if you couldn't speak English, thought everyone hated you and couldn't get a job?

The other cost saving would have to include law enforcement and how-ever much we're having to pay to track them down when they're driving drunk, playing gangbanger and shooting each other and everyone around them, and generally acting like animals instead of civilized human beings.

I passed a scrawy little brown guy this past weekend in Walmart wearing a t-shirt with MEXICO on its front. I don't care how much he's spending at Walmart, I doubt very much we're getting value-served for whatever he's costing us.

I am surprised at how many of you are ready to declare victory based on a small amount of anecdotal information.

Wouldn't it be better to wait and see how effective this new policy is after a year or so?

> they're driving drunk, playing gangbanger and
> shooting each other and everyone around them,
> and generally acting like animals

Statistically, illegals offend a lower rate than citizens.

> I passed a scrawy little brown guy

Wow.

I personally know of one family whose business has taken an unexpected hit because of the new immigration law, and the wife is having to get a job and put her son in daycare. So, it is having an impact.

I just wish the "comprehensive immigration reform" law that was defeated had been a combination of a.) Strict border enforcement; b.) streamlined legal immigration reform, including incentives for highly skilled professionals; c.) some kind of tracking mechanism; and d.) the funds to accomplish all of this. Instead, we got an amnesty bill, little to no border enforcement, continuing bureaucratic paperwork hassles for qualified immigration applicants; and no funding for border security.

I like Mexicans. Great people, good values, and easily assimilated into the US. Folks like me just want them coming in legally and assimilating into our system. We just can't have 15 million non-residents here. It is dangerous, especially if that group ever becomes radicalized by politics. Those that live here must be committed to the US, and fully integrated into our society.

However, the state does have around 9% of its workforce comprised by illegals. They rent houses and apartments, shop for food, and consume just like anyone else does in Arizona. When they disappear, the state will undoubtedly suffer a hit to the economy, especially in housing, which could depress real-estate values in some areas. Some of the immigrants own houses, and they have to sell them fast, which has glutted the resale market in the state. Secondary markets like furniture and home improvement have slowed considerably in Arizona, too.
Posted by Ed Morrissey on August 27, 2007 6:57 AM | Comments (31) | TrackBacks (1)

Hmmm So in Arizona we are about to have lower housing prices, more jobs at higher pay and probably lower taxes since they won't have to pay for the Illegals basic services. I think I will be moving to Arizona when I retire! Sounds like a win win to me.

Statistically, illegals offend a lower rate than citizens.

MarkT - see following statistics as of 2005

"At yearend 2005 there were 3,145 black male sentenced prison inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,244 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 471 white male inmates per 100,000 white males."
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

I wonder how many of those 1,244 Hispanic male inmates are citizens. I suppose if you want to parse it, then yes, the 3,145 black male inmates would be citizens, but do you really want to make your point by comparing Latino crooks to ghetto blacks?

So ... do you have any statistics to trot out to cover your moonbat assertion or are we just supposed to trust you because you're such a cheerfully nice lunatic?

It's an indication of how insane the immigration debate has become that these modest and sensible steps are depicted as "hard line".

If this is "hard line", what term would describe the oft-predicted (in some quarters) action of rounding up all the illegals and shipping them out of the counry in "cattle cars"?

However, the state does have around 9% of its workforce comprised by illegals.

And they are responsible for about 1% of the states economy.

Secondary markets like furniture and home improvement have slowed considerably in Arizona, too.

It's not the role of the US government to artifically prop up the markets of generous political donors by allowing the law to be flouted. (I realise that this is considered debatable in faux-libertarian circles.)

You may as well say that "Secondary markets like gold chains, fancy cars, and black market firearms have slowed considerably as the government has cracked down on drug dealers."

Sam

We just can't have 15 million non-residents here.

Well, we do. In fact we have about forty million non-citizens here, legal and illegal.

It is dangerous, especially if that group ever becomes radicalized by politics.

If? That horse has left the barn and is already over the hill and across the river.

I like Mexicans.

Bully for you. I like Chinese people. But that does not mean I want a hundred million of them to come live in the US.

I like my brother, but I'd probably wring his neck if he moved into my house.

I don't think that AZ's economy will take a hit at all.

First of all, the incidental increase in wages will be more than offset be the elimination of parasitic use of social services. As the commenter noted above, illegal immigrants use services without paying into them. Most rural communties are struggling mightly with the healthcare and education costs associated with them. With illegal immigrants gone, those services will not be abused anymore.

Schools won't need additional teachers or need to modify their curriculum to account for children who can't speak English.

Emergency rooms won't be flooded with individuals who use them as their doctors' office and then refuse to pay their bills.

One other fact to keep in mind that I saw firsthand in several rural communities was that illegal immigrants opened their own grocery and clothing stores, and that's where they shopped primarily.

The loss of those consumers won't necessarily impact other businesses the way the Chamber of Commerce suggests. Sure, they may stop shopping at Wal-Mart, but Wal-Mart can absorb those losses. And again, the tax revenue lost will still be offset by the positive effect on social service costs.

As far as the housing market is concerned, the bulk of illegal immigrants rent and tend to cram more than one family in a dwelling and, as a result, drive down the value of surrounding properties.

There may be additional houses on the market from the relatively few illegal immigrants that are selling, but as with everything there is an upside to that -- more affordable housing for those who are looking to buy.

I'm convinced this whining about the economic impact won't bear itself out. Just as the predicted disaster of welfare reform never materialized.

I live in northern Az.
The illegals started to leave here some months ago, when the home market crashed. I'm in construction, and have already gotten raises because the illegals have been leaving.

I went to the local hospital to visit a friend, and the nurses told me the ER traffic is down "quite a bit", as a majority of the patient used to be (nonpaying)illegals. They love it.

The local cops love it too. Only the meth heads commit more crime here than illegals, they tell me.

The only people in town who are not benefiting is the local "Mexican foods" store. Nobody but the illegals shopped there.

So far, so good. And it looks to be getting even better.

We'll see in a year, if Gov Janet doesn't gut it. She never met an illegal she didn't like.

I live in a nice neighborhood in Mesa, Ariz. When we checked into the local elementary school for our kindergarten-aged daughter, we found out that 85% of the students cannot speak English.

Apparently, they bus in the children of illegal aliens. However, the administrators said we should enroll our child anyway since all students must be conversant in English by the third grade. Oooo-kay...

Needless to say, we've had to choose a school in a different neighborhood since our public school system can't even teach Kindergarteners anymore. I'm all for immigration, but it needs to be LEGAL.

Once anything is illegal, more crime tends to follow. Even if the people who are here illegally aren't out to cause problems to anyone in particular, identity theft is rampant and people who prey on a community unlikely to report crimes to the police.
There will be some problems in Arizona as the population density changes, but with market forces in play, they should sort themselves out without too much difficulty.
I'm finding this as an "If By Whiskey" issue: "If by 'illegals' you mean those who have come here to work hard, keep their nose clean to support their families and give them a shot at a better life, I believe we need to reform the immigration laws to make it possible for them to become legal citizens. If by 'illegals' you mean those who have used the activist networks to commit crimes, steal other's identities to underwrite their purchases, create problems with packing too many people into living quarters, and have a scofflaw attitude towards the communtiy, I don't want them in my backyard." It will all come down to cases in the end. The legal immigration system needs to become more responsive to both those who we should welcome and those we should shun.

Illegals are anyone who did not come in the front door with the proper documentation!

Those who want to come here and work hard, take a number and get in line!

Illegals are anyone who did not come in the front door with the proper documentation!

Those who want to come here and work hard, take a number and get in line!

OH MY GOD - I have boycotted this site because of Ed's pathetic view of the illegal alien problem and his support of amnesty - the first time I come back since the amnesty debate - here he goes again - the illegals are all criminals - plain and simple - stand in line at the foreign embassy and get a visa (just like we have to do) - or stay in your own country - if you work without authorization it is a crime - the illegals do not pay taxes, respect any of our laws - no more of this nonsense - NO AMNESTY, EVER.

I AM DONE WITH THIS SITE FOREVER....Bugh BYE!!!

Management in my building in downtown Los Angeles issued a memo last Friday warning that there was an immigration rally scheduled on Saturday and traffic might be impacted.

I have seen or heard absolutely nothing about the rally, whether it happened, and if so, how many people showed up. Either there was a miserable showing making it laughable to report about, or it was called off, or local English-speaking media chose not to cover it at all so it must not be important.

We've had a bit too much growth here in AZ for my liking anyway. A slow down would be a welcome reprieve.

In any case, whatever the impact, the market will provide the correction.

Show of hands time. Did anyone even realize ronalddog was gone before? Anybody gonna miss him if he goes away again?

As goes ronalddog, so goes America.

;-)

MarkT said that "illegals offend at a lower rate than citizens."

Umm..MarkT, by definition, *EVERY* illegal is an offender by virtue of having crossed the border...That's a 100% crime rate...

Let's talk about document fraud...Also a crime, again...100% of illegals committing it...

Let's talk about using fraudulent documents to fraudulently obtain state and federal benefits, yet another felony offense...

...and we haven't even gotten to other violent and/or property crimes against citizens....

Do I really need to go on? You don't get to pick and choose which crimes "count" in order to try to make some kind of phony point...They're illegal, they're criminals: anything after that is just semantics.

Before the inevitable "just trying to make a better life" response comes, just remember that a citizen who commits an armed robbery is "just trying to make a better life for himself" too...doesn't make him any less a criminal...The law is the law: no one gets to pick and choose which ones they want to obey....

Enough's enough: zero tolerance for illegals and their apologists...

If they are here legally,welcome.
If they are here illegally,good-bye.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
If enough of them leave,employers will be forced to pay a decent,living wage and not surprisingly,Americans will line up for those jobs that Americans won't do now because it doesn't pay.And before the screaming and denigrating starts,I am very well aware of the economic impact of this.
After all,I have one of those jobs that Americans won't do.
And I am constantly being undercut by illegals who do the same work for dollars less an hour than I can afford to accept.
Like them,I have a family to support and bills to pay.
Unlike them,I choose to do LEGALLY.

If they are here legally,welcome.
If they are here illegally,good-bye.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
If enough of them leave,employers will be forced to pay a decent,living wage and not surprisingly,Americans will line up for those jobs that Americans won't do now because it doesn't pay.And before the screaming and denigrating starts,I am very well aware of the economic impact of this.
After all,I have one of those jobs that Americans won't do.
And I am constantly being undercut by illegals who do the same work for dollars less an hour than I can afford to accept.
Like them,I have a family to support and bills to pay.
Unlike them,I choose to do LEGALLY.

Because the new law takes effect during the school term the local districts are applying it already. The upshot is a desperate hiring binge in the local district. 40% of current employees had bogus SS#s.

I'm building a house in Phoenix and have yet to see an anglo in the trades. Luckily Yo hablo. Inane permitting already put my schedule in the hamper. What this will do is anybody's guess.

"When they disappear, the state will undoubtedly suffer a hit to the economy, especially in housing, which could depress real-estate values in some areas. Some of the immigrants own houses, and they have to sell them fast, which has glutted the resale market in the state. Secondary markets like furniture and home improvement have slowed considerably in Arizona, too."

because who'd want to move to a state with low real estate prices and employers forced to offer top dollar?

> Umm..MarkT, by definition, *EVERY* illegal is an
> offender by virtue of having crossed the
> border...That's a 100% crime rate...

Please go back and read NahnCee's post that I was responding too - that should provide the context you either didn't see or ignored.

MarkT - your rebuttal comment was, literally, as follows:

"Statistically, illegals offend [sic] a lower rate than citizens."

Statistically *all* illegals have committed an illegal offense just by being here, so therefore their rate of offense is 100%; which ain't no way that's "lower than citizens". Therefore, your statement is erroneous, wrong, falacious, and just plain dumb.

I'm still waiting, too, for you to produce the statistical proof you so glibly threw out, even though you stepped on your own defense in how you phrased your claim.

May we just assume you're an idiot and move on?

As with all policy changes, there will be some adjustment. Yes, the housing market will suffer, as will secondary markets. Prices at restaurants and hotels will rise. But at the same time, life will get better. Traffic congestion will improve. Commute times will decline. Crime will fall. Student/teacher ratios will improve as, I suspect, will student performance.

As for the hit to landlords? I couldn't care less. That's their problem. They have been avid, HARDLINE, fanatical supporters of open borders, because the only people who really benefit from a booming housing market are the people who own lots of land or houses, not just one. So if they lose their pants it will be little more than just desserts.

What a blessed experiment, if it actually happens: Americans getting to see how we'd live without our imported Mexican labor and all their imported dysfunctionalities and all the bastardization of the normal free-market system.

What I expect is that we will hear from the media is lots and lots about old mom & pop businesses going under due to a lack of Mexicans, and nothing about the improvements.

What remains to be seen is how Arizonans - especially the retirees - handle this. Will they flip out when their favorite restaurant closes, or when they have to pay a 13 year old American $5 more a week to mow their lawn? Will that cause them to demand their Mexicans back?

If so, then the country doesn't deserve to survive - good riddance to us all.

Those arguing that the solution is "more legal immigration" miss the point - actually, you miss three points.

The first is that illegal immigrants will keep coming under higher legal immigration because they'll still undercut legal workers, whether Americans or foreigners.

Second is that legal and illegal immigration go hand-in-hand. Always have, always will. Legal immigrants provide connections, housing, and knowledge for those who come illegally.

Third, and most important, is that the real problem is TOO MUCH IMMIGRATION, period. Not legal or illegal, but all immigration. The United States simply cannot continue to add over 2 MILLION PEOPLE to its population EACH AND EVERY YEAR due to immigration alone. It is unsustainable. It's effects on wages, income inequality, traffic congestion, crime, housing prices, health care, politics, ad infinitum are simply too much. These and many other rsults are the unavoidable consequence of the act of choosing more immigration.

Several points:

1. It is true that illegals are relatively law-abiding compared to native latinos. Why? Mostly because illegals tend to be too old to get into crime, while they also fear deportation.

The problem is that their children are much, much more criminal than anglos. Overall, Hispanics are roughly three times as criminal as anglos. This is the end result of illegal immigration - unless you can prevent illegals from having children.

2. "The real issue for the ACC is labor shortages. The state currently has an unemployment rate of 3.7%, statistically full employment."

So, what is the problem, except that wages will increase? Increasing wages at the bottom are a *good thing*.(That wage increases are seen as a policy problem is a sign of just how warped the debate about immigration has become)

This is the best news that I have heard in a long time. I just hope that the governments new fascination with enforcing the law has some traction behind it.

Sounds like Arizona businesses are going to mechanize and be much more high-tech and efficient in a few years. Win-win. Just get them off the drug of low-skill labor.

We don't pick cotton by hand any more. Who says that a nickel off the cost of a taco is worth the loss of sovereignty and country?