September 13, 2007

German Government: Truthers?

The German public television channel ZDF recently ran a documentary on 9/11. According to Henryk Broder in Der Spiegel, the program took an unusual approach, but unfortunately one that seems all too familiar now to Americans, and Broder wonders whether people have become too stupid to comprehend objective reality:

Everything, as it happens, is relative. Three hairs in a bowl of soup are three hairs too many, while three hairs on someone's head are relatively few. Even the oldest jokes about this theory of relativity, the ones that wouldn't even get a laugh out of drunken fools, suddenly become precious pearls of humor to those who saw Tuesday's ZDF documentary titled "Sept. 11, 2001 -- What Really Happened."

Some might say the documentary was relatively harmless compared with the wildest conspiracy theories that have been circulating since the attacks, such as the one claiming that 4,000 Jewish New Yorkers who worked at the World Trade Center didn't show up for work on Sept. 11. But if we hold a documentary up to a different standard, the ZDF broadcast was relatively malicious, misleading and, most of all, deceptive from beginning to end. On its Web site, the network claimed: "ZDF research bears out accusations against authorities." The facts behind the documentary were supposedly provided by "well-known skeptics, experts and eyewitnesses to the attacks." ZDF also claimed that it would contain "never before published documents and footage."

The network trumpeted the documentary at full volume. But in reality, the "never before seen footage" consisted of a few close-ups from the engineering rooms of the Twin Towers, which could have just as easily been shot in ZDF's furnace room. The "well-known skeptics" were the usual suspects who have long been performing their acrobatics in the 9/11 circus. One was a former chairman of a local chapter of the German Social Democratic Party. He served as Minister of Research and Technology under former Chancellor Helmut Schmidt and has spent the last 25 years publicizing his revelations about the practices of intelligence agencies. Another one of ZDF's competent experts was a 23-year-old American who produced a "documentary" on his laptop that became a hit on the Internet and will soon be released as a film. ...

Public stupidity, which we cannot trust to reach a sound verdict on even the most elementary issue, doesn't just believe that Bush and the gun lobby were behind 9/11, but also that the moon landing was faked, Lady Di was murdered, Elvis is still alive and that Captain Nemo sank the Titanic.

From Broder's description, the documentary apparently took an approach that would be akin to the History Channel's look at 9/11 conspiracy theories -- without the engineers who provided actual analysis of the facts. Broder reports that ZDF's documentary only contained minimal rebuttal from eyewitnesses and none from experts such as the NIST academics or the Popular Mechanics journalists who have written in depth about the scientific illiteracy of the 9/11 truthers. ZDF then claimed in its advertisements that its research supported the "accusations against authorities," which Broder writes is absolute nonsense.

The final straw for Broder, however, was not the documentary as much as the German public reaction afterwards. ZDF held an online poll, which are notoriously inaccurate, but the results still seem shocking. Only 27% believe that Osama bin Laden ordered the 9/11 attacks and that al-Qaeda executed them. Twenty-five percent believe that George Bush ordered the attacks, and another 25% believed that the US government did it, apparently apart from Bush. And here's a new one -- 15% believe it was the American gun lobby that carried out the 9/11 attacks.

Given that ZDF is a public television channel, why is the German government giving support to 9/11 truthers? Can you imagine the outcry from berlin if PBS aired a documentary of similar quality insinuating that Angela Merkel secretly supported Nazi organizations or the Stasi? It would be their right to do so, but it would reflect badly on the US, and that's without the insult to the memory of 3,000 people who died on 9/11.

Broder's wider point is also worth noting. People like the 9/11 truthers argue that they should be taken seriously and their views be given in-depth consideration, merely because they express them, but that's not true. They have every right to express their ideas, but that doesn't make them serious or worthy of anything but derision. They exist only because of a willful disregard of science and fact, and thrive on a climate of irrationality and paranoia. It's childishness run amuck.

People have a right to their opinions, but facts are not relative. Real science is not relative. Too bad ZDF hasn't figured that out yet.


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Comments (41)

Posted by Troll Feeder | September 13, 2007 8:19 AM

Oh, Cr@p!!!! They're finally on to us!

- Troll Feeder the gun nut

Posted by Ralf Goergens | September 13, 2007 8:27 AM


while this is just stupid and wrong, the German government has no right to tell public TV what they should broadcast; funding is from taxes, but the extent as well as specific funding certain programs receive isn't under government control. The poll also isn't reprsentative, for whom do you think would be motivated to participate in the first place? Few people to whom it is self-evident that Al-Queda did it are going to, such a myself, so that conspiracy-nuts had the poll to themselves.

Posted by Tom | September 13, 2007 8:29 AM

So, what kind of outcry may we expect from Washington, or from the American public? We all know the answer to that.
Also take note of Broder's "Public stupidity", a regrettably true elitist smirk, engendered by 50 years of dumbing down, thanks to the aforesaid elitists.
"As ye sow,...."

Posted by the fly-man/bong boy | September 13, 2007 8:31 AM

Real science is not relative, but I did have a relative who was a scientist.... Apologies to Groucho.

Posted by TheRealSwede | September 13, 2007 8:33 AM

Conspiracy theories find especially fertile ground in minds that do not recognize the existence of objective truths. For relativists, the only absolute belief is that no beliefs are absolute.

Posted by docjim505 | September 13, 2007 8:39 AM

"You are here because you have failed in humility, in self-discipline. You would not make the act of submission which is the price of sanity. You preferred to be a lunatic, a minority of one. Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Winston. You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else."

George Orwell

If enough people believe the Troofers, then their version of what happened on 9-11 becomes history, doesn't it? A century from now, it may well be written in history books that George Bush, in league with the Zionists and the American Gun Lobby (!), destroyed buildings in New York City and Washington for the purposes of starting a war with Iraq to both enrich himself and his corporate sponsors and to further the cause of Zionist hegemony in the Middle East. If he's mentioned at all, Osama bin Laden will be a minor character, an innocent man framed by the wicked Bush cabal. He may even become a totally fictitious character created by the Bush cabal as a boogeyman to frighten the American people.

My God, what a frightening world we live in.

What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the pneumatic tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of the Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs - to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date... All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place.

The fact that this documentary appeared in Germany is telling: they are the same people who managed to convince themselves that six million people just sort of moved to another city. Perhaps capacity for self-delusion is a Teutonic genetic trait?

Posted by TomB | September 13, 2007 8:39 AM

This kind of "documentary" is a byproduct of the freedom of speech, which unfortunately applies also to idiots.
The real scary part is, that idiots also have right to vote. Can courts of Inquisition be really as far away as we would like to think?
The irony of the situation is, that it is OK to be a 9/11 denier, but it is a definite NO-NO to be a Global Warming denier.
So my question to the truthers is: Is it fair?

Posted by Charlie Eklund | September 13, 2007 8:43 AM

As offensive as this type of deranged ignorance is, it's a lot less dangerous to the world than other beliefs a majority of Germans have held in the past.
In other words, at least they're not going on and on about the Master Race any more.

Posted by Teresa | September 13, 2007 8:44 AM

This stuff is really stupid, but check out the comment section on your Hsu story. Here we go again with rumours that Hillary killed Vince Foster. There are idiot conspiracy theorists on all sides of the political spectrum.

Posted by Tom | September 13, 2007 8:51 AM

Ach, Herr Goergens! The German gov't just disburses taxpayer marks to the "public" media without any "right" to determine the use to which these funds are put? How novel, how sensible, how wonderfully post-modern.

Posted by docjim505 | September 13, 2007 8:55 AM


No doubt that there are loonies on all sides, but I can't recall a network running a documentary validating the Vince Foster conspiracy theories. Perhaps there was one; if so, then doubtless I had better things to do than watch it (like organize the toothpicks in my kitchen by length).

Posted by Dan Collins | September 13, 2007 8:56 AM

It's "amok." I should know.

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 8:56 AM

"...the 'never before seen footage' consisted of a few close-ups from the engineering rooms of the Twin Towers, which could have just as easily been shot in ZDF's furnace room..."

So the public television station in Germany wants so badly convince the German public that the US government was behind 9/11 that they broadcasted a hoax by fabricating footage of something in the basement of their building, trying to pass it off as being from the WTC towers. That's a pretty good conspiracy theory. How did they keep everyone quiet? What if someone from the ZDF not in on the hoax notices that the footage on their documentary is really from the basement?

Posted by Kustie the Klown | September 13, 2007 9:20 AM

I can't wait until the day when the US and the American people stop funding the defense of Europe (and Germany in particular), and those countries (most especially the PEOPLE of those countries) get a hard and rude awakening about what it costs to fund a national defense.

Once the carpet that holds up the socialist German state gets ripped from beneath the German people, perhaps they will think twice about whether it is so wise to waste those suddenly precious deutsche marks on anti-american pap like this 9/11 "documentary" (the Euro having long since collapsed as a viable currency by that point).

Posted by docjim505 | September 13, 2007 9:28 AM


In all fairness, that seems a reasonable thing to do. After all, I wouldn't expect our government to tell PBS or NPR what they can and can't publish.

Please note that I'm not a fan of NPR or PBS; their liberal bent aside, why the hell should my tax dollars go to pay for them? If NPR / PBS have programming that people want, let them pay for it solely through advertizements or private sponsorship like all the other networks.

Posted by swabjockey05 | September 13, 2007 9:30 AM

TomB: "So my question to the truthers is: Is it fair?"

Apples and oranges, shipmate. You see, the shyster wannabe lawyer (and "troofer") babbles on with denials for altruistic reasons. He's trying to save the rest of us from the evil government.

You on the other hand...are in denial for purely SELFISH reasons. You’re selfish the shyster is an altruist. Hope that helps.

Posted by quickjustice | September 13, 2007 9:33 AM

Two nights after 9/11, I was sitting up sleepless, attempting to watch television. I was flipping through the channels, and came upon a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation "Town Hall Meeting" broadcast from Toronto. The CBC is funded and controlled by the Canadian government. The meeting was being led by an organization known as the NDP.

I watched, horrified, as Canadian speaker after Canadian speaker excoriated the Americans and the Bush Administration for the "American arrogance" that had caused the attacks on the Twin Towers and Pentagon. In other words, the Canadian government was subsidizing, supporting, and encouraging speech claiming that America had brought these attacks upon itself a bare two days after the attacks themselves.

As you can imagine, my impression of Canadians and of Canada has been colored by this broadcast ever since. I'm no longer surprised to hear Anti-American rants from Canadians. And I've heard no condemnation of those sorts of broadcasts from any other Canadian. So why are you picking on the Germans, Ed? We have foreign enemies much closer to home.

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 9:41 AM

"...I'm not a fan of NPR or PBS; their liberal bent aside..."

On the PBS show Newshour, Republicans outnumber Democrats 2:1.

Posted by Andrew X | September 13, 2007 9:49 AM

The whole 'Troofer' thing is possibly the most overall disturbing political development in the Western world of my lifetime.

How stupid you have to be to buy it is an issue all it's own, well discussed.

But my primary concerns run along the lines of... one of two things are true: Either the US government did this to itself for nefarious reasons (not), or a vast number of free citizens, not a few American, are prepared to believe same on the flimsiest of evidence, while the actual perpetrators laugh their asses off and continue to plot.

Under which scenario can I expect free civilization to survive long-term?

Along similar lines, I argued (such as was possible) with a troofer using an analogy. A six year old girl disappears three blocks away, and is later found raped, murdered, mutilated and cannibalized. (I go extreme for a reason.)

And, you, good fellow, say, "I think my uncle Bob did it!". And you go on TV and say so. You go to the girls parents and say so. You go to the cops and say so. You march down the street yelling it. You attack every alibi uncle Bob comes out with. You point out that uncle Bob is a known criminal. (Based on that gram of cocaine he was caught with fifteen years ago.) You go on and on and on...

Then, another suspect confesses and DNA proves it. Bob is clear.

So what do you say? "Hey, old boy, guess you're off the hook. Sorry about all that. See ya at Thanskgiving, and give my best to Aunt Mary!" ????

I don't think so. Any relationship you ever had with Bob is now dead. It's over. You're never gonna set foot in his house again. Ever. You have been crystal clear about what you think of uncle Bob, how you feel, that you consider him basically a horrible, evil, despicable man, and not only is the relationship over, but genuine vengeance on you by uncle Bob would be considered by many a rational person as wholly justified.

That is essentially where the troofers are. In a great sense, there is no going back, and the results of what they have done, on the world who believes that crap and on sane Americans and beyond who don't, will last for decades after Bush is gone. I would actually compare this troofism as a belief to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and beleive it will last as long.

I hate these people, big time, and do not know if I can ever really forgive them for what they do.

Posted by docjim505 | September 13, 2007 10:17 AM


So don't watch it. I mean, what's so hard about changing the channel to something you prefer more?

It's amazing the things you have to explain to people sometimes...

Posted by tgharris | September 13, 2007 10:21 AM

The "American gun lobby"? If the "American gun lobby" had been at the airports with prior knowledge of the hijackers' plot...Osama would have been short nineteen murderers.

Posted by MarkT | September 13, 2007 10:28 AM

> People have a right to their opinions, but facts
> are not relative. Real science is not relative.

You can use this line in your next story on global warming ;-)

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 10:53 AM

I don't watch any TV news, that's not the point. You said PBS has a liberal bent, I showed you something that says otherwise. I think people assume things that are not always true. Just pointing something out.

Andrew X:
Let's say the six year old is just raped, and not killed and eaten. Guess who is usually the first people the cops look at as suspects? Family members - like an uncle. In a culture where people routinely rape children within their own families (besides raping children in general, besides raping in general), I don't understand why it is so inconceivable that the government would kill a few thousand citizens for what they believe to be the good of the country. (The are a couple of reasons the government might think this is necessary).
We know for a fact that more than three thousand US citizens died in Iraq so far, supposedly for the good of the country. The stated reasons for doing so are different than what the reasons for staging 9/11 would be, but depending on what the actual reasons are, there might not be a big moral difference.
Even if the government killed 3,000 of its own citizens, I do not see it being even close to the worst that they do. They killed a million Iraqis, which I think is worse, even though they are just brown people. 18,000 people, six 9/11's every year, die because our government will not give all its citizens health insurance. I consider this morally worse as well.

Posted by TomB | September 13, 2007 11:11 AM

dave wrote:

..."In a culture where people routinely rape children within their own families (besides raping children in general, besides raping in general), I don't understand why it is so inconceivable that the government would kill a few thousand citizens for what they believe to be the good of the country." ...

I wonder, what do you really know about about this country and this society, anyway?

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 11:20 AM

"I wonder, what do you really know about about this country and this society, anyway?"

I think so:

"In the 1991 study in three states--Alabama, North Dakota and South Carolina--police investigators determined that only 4 percent of the rape victims younger than 12 years old were attacked by strangers during 1991. All the other assailants were either family members (46 percent)or acquaintances or friends (50 percent). Twenty percent were raped by their fathers. Among 12- to 17-year-old victims, 20 percent were raped by family members, 65 percent by an acquaintance or friend and 15 percent by a stranger. Among those 18 years old or older, 12 percent were raped by a family member, 55 percent by an acquaintance or friend and 33 percent by a stranger."

Since we are talking about a six year old, the chances are 50:50 she was raped by a family member. That's why the cops look at family members first. You people refuse to even consider the possibility that 9/11 was committed by the US government. If cops followed your lead and refused to consider the possiblity that someone would raped a family member, there would be a lot more rapists on the loose. I'm glad cops don't think the same way you do.

Posted by TomB | September 13, 2007 11:55 AM

You might want to check some dictionary before using an unfamiliar word, like "routinely" for example. English is full of those traps.

Posted by Ralf Goergens | September 13, 2007 12:08 PM


Ach, Herr Goergens! The German gov't just disburses taxpayer marks to the "public" media without any "right" to determine the use to which these funds are put? How novel, how sensible, how wonderfully post-modern.

The government has no choice in this, for the public TV and radio stations have a constitutional right to be both be free from government interventions as well as a certain level of funding. There is a special tax for public TV and radio stations that is collected by a different body than our counterpart to the IRS and the revenue of this tax is earmarked for them, and them only.

Posted by Maetenloch | September 13, 2007 12:09 PM

Sadly this isn't unusual for the German media. The blog, David's Medienkritik has documented the ant-americanism of the german media for the last several years. The media elite has been biased in its coverage of the U.S. for so long that most of the German people have a hopelessly distorted view of the U.S.. France may be famous for its anti-americanism, but on a percentage of the population basis Germany is far more anti-american. The online poll results are not that far off other polls that have been taken since 9/11. Ironically, many Germans believe that they truly know America, but this is really a false familiarity. Their perception of the U.S. is really a mishmash of imported sitcom episodes and relentlessly negative stories from the German media. Within this context, it's not a big jump to believe that the U.S. government/Bush/gun lobby staged the 9/11 attacks.

Posted by David M | September 13, 2007 12:15 PM

Trackbacked by The Thunder Run - Web Reconnaissance for 09/13/2007
A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the check back often.

Posted by TRUTH | September 13, 2007 1:51 PM

I would have much preferred seeing the 'gun lobby' replaced with Israel / Zionists in the poll. But then the voting would have changed dramatically.

If you stick to the facts of that day they DO NOT add up. Also if you look who has gained politically from the past 6 years you come up with one answer......Israel / Zionists.

Posted by Tobias | September 13, 2007 1:55 PM

Oh please, come off it, all of you! I actually watched the documentary and it was absolutely tame. Nearly all conspiracisms were contradicted by experts and *not* the other way round like Broder says in his article. The comparison is quite accurate: Just like the PBS wouldn't report on speculations about Merkel working for the GDR the ZDF would never support conspiracy theories on 9/11. At the anniversary. In prime time. *sheesh*

And the online poll, please. I myself would have voted on Mickey Mouse as mastermind behind 9/11, that's the way it always goes with these online voting things.

The article actually says more about the author, Henryk Broder, than it does about the documentary. I'm not saying that I see one grain of truth in the conspiracy theories about 9/11 or conspiracy theories in general, but I know that Broder is a guy who likes to keep his view on the world a very simple one. I read lots of texts by him about the Middle East, and they all end like: Israel - good, Palestines - bad. Naturally, someone like him might get upset if simple truths are questioned, even if they are only questioned in a way that can easily be dismissed and therefore doesn't actually need further commentation and much ado. So that's why he turns against the ZDF instead, I think.

Posted by Don Miguel | September 13, 2007 2:00 PM

I think the actual translation of the poll choice was not "American gun lobby" but was "arms lobby." Either way it's pretty ludicrous, but no more than the chairwoman of the German branch of the International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War calling 9/11 "airplane accidents."

Ralf ... Wie Gehts? Long time no see.

Posted by Tom W. | September 13, 2007 2:15 PM

"Even if the government killed 3,000 of its own citizens, I do not see it being even close to the worst that they do. They killed a million Iraqis, which I think is worse, even though they are just brown people."

One million Iraqis dead so far is 2740 per day, every day, for the last four years.

That means there must be hundreds of news stories out there reporting 2740 Iraqis killed in a single day. There would also be plenty of stories reporting more than 2740 killed in a single day.

But there aren't such stories, because it's another pathetic, infantile lie. It's just more propaganda that's so transparently false it may as well have been put out by kindergartners.

It's not surprising that since our education system has been destroyed by "progressives," we've produced more and more people unable to reason.

For some reason these are always the ones who think they're smarter than everybody else.

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 2:49 PM

Tom W:
Maybe you didn't know this, but all the people who die in a war are not reported about in the newspaper.

When you say that the Johns Hopkins research published in the Lancet is an "infantile lie", do you literally mean they are making the whole thing up? Or do you not like the technique of cluster sampling? What exactly is the problem?

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 3:28 PM

Tom W:
"One million Iraqis dead so far is 2740 per day, every day, for the last four years."

Sorry Tom, this works out to 4 million dead, not 1 million. You better get your multiplication figured out before we start talking about statistics.

Andrew X:
You say that "truthers" believe the government is responsible for 9/11 based on "...the flimsiest of evidence...". We have far more evidence than simply saying that the government's version of events is an "infantile lie". Nevertheless, that argument is probably enough for you regarding the Lancet paper, right?

Posted by Del Dolemonte | September 13, 2007 4:24 PM

dave said:

LOL! Citing a leftwing Clintonite "study" on PBS is so intellectually dishonest it's not even worth commenting on.

Now if you can find a politically neutral group to study PBS and they come up with the same result, I'll believe it.

By the way, this FAIR "study" is flawed, as all they did was look at the guest list for a 6 month period. They didn't actually watch every minute of every show over that period. The "study" was also done at a time, during the run-up to the Iraq War, when it's logical that there would be more Repubs in the news to begin with. That would also explain the 50% figure for military and government sources.

Posted by Ralf Goergens | September 13, 2007 5:01 PM


Ralf ... Wie Gehts? Long time no see.

Very good, thanks. And yourself?

Posted by dave | September 13, 2007 6:21 PM

del dolemonte:
So did FAIR make up the numbers, or is the study flawed? Why do you bother to analyze lies?

Posted by Methos | September 13, 2007 7:37 PM

Germany has ALWAYS been culturally opposed to the rest of Western Europe.

Rome never Romanized Germany. The Protestant Reformation, WWI and WWII began in Germany.

Germany is now becoming hostile again with its importation of Muslims.

For Europe, it is the 7th Century all over again.

Posted by Tony N | September 14, 2007 6:01 PM

Are the Germans really this stupid?

Posted by Andrew X | September 14, 2007 9:47 PM

Dave -

In the off chance the thread is still alive...

RE: "let's say the girl was just raped, etc etc.."

No. That is the point. We are not talking about a terrible crime, we are talking about literally the MOST abomonable crime imaginable, certainly the most monstrous crime ever perpatrated against US citizens by it's government basically in history (were it true), and so forth. That is why I my analogy was far worse than just an admitidly abominable rape.

The Nazi's burned the Reichstag. One person died. No economic damage. The effing troofers think a VAST conspiracy of US government workers, certainly many who pre-date Mr. Bush, killed three thousand of their fellow citizens, tore a hole in the economy that took two years to fill, and did it to build a pipeline across Afghanistan that we haven't gotten around to building a single inch of yet, and to steal oil from Iraqis that we haven't gotten around to stealing yet.

As to your 'evidence', there are whole books of evidence proving that the Soviets killed JFK, except the ones proving that LBJ killed JFK, except the ones proving that a secret service man accidentally killed JFK when his gun hit the limo (Moral Error on Amazon), except the ones proving that it was Oswald alone. There are whole books of "evidence" that the Titanic was sunk in an insurance scam. Yap yap yap.

This is the same country that the US President can't get a frikkin' BJ from an intern without the whole planet finding out about it. Nor can he even manage to plant false WMD's in Iraq to be "found" (oops), or fire a couple attorneys who serve at his pleasure. But he can carry out, "the world's most intricate and flawlessly-executed ever, ever, ever".

Special kudos to those Clinton admin officials who played along with the "lies" of the 9/11 commission report, and to the Clinton's themselves for joining in the conspiracy fun. Also the families of the dead who talked to them on the phones, thanks to them too (they were really CIA agent's who faked the voices. You know... the CIA.... Valerie Plame's CIA...) Also the people I know (I live in Arlington, VA), driving on 395 or Columbia Pike who SAW the damn plane hit the Pentagon!! Government agents all. I would be happy to go on.

I've seen all the bullshit "evidence", and it's insulting to those who died, and re-inforces a primary reality about conpiracy freeks. As soon as you accept a "conspiracy", you IMMEDIATELY place your self not only separate from, but above, all those stupid sheeple dumb enough to believe the government, blah blah blah. But you guys are smarter than the rest who just don't know, yap yap yap.

You're about a tenth as smart as you think you are, you are categorically and without a doubt aiding and abetting genuine and real fascists who WON'T magically be gone in a mere one year and four months the way your fantasy monsters will, and you should be ashamed of yourselves, the lot of you.

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