September 18, 2007

The Islamist Plot Against The US

The trial of the Holy Land Foundation has produced some interesting insights into the strategies of our radical Islamist enemies. A document from the Muslim Brotherhood organization in the US describes how it planned to undermine and destroy American democracy and replace it with an Islamic theocracy, which is by turns both traitorous and ridiculous (via Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, and Rick Moran):

A 1991 strategy paper for the Brotherhood, often referred to as the Ikhwan in Arabic, found in the Virginia home of an unindicted co-conspirator in the case, describes the group's U.S. goals, referred to as a "civilization-jihadist process."

"The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all other religions," it states. This process requires a "mastery of the art of 'coalitions,' the art of 'absorption' and the principles of 'cooperation.' "

Success in the U.S. "in establishing an observant Islamic base with power and effectiveness will be the best support and aid to the global movement," it states.

A transcript of a Brotherhood orientation meeting recorded in the early 1980s includes discussions of the need for "securing the group" from infiltration by "Zionism, Masonry ... the CIA, FBI, etc. so that we find out if they are monitoring us" and "how can we get rid of them." Discussions later turn to "weapons training at the Ikhwan's camps" in Oklahoma and Missouri.

It's hard to say how seriously anyone should take this as a real contemporary threat to the US, but it does point out how seriously the enemies of the US take their mission. The radical jihadists do not want peaceful co-existence with an America who leaves the Middle East. It is not our foreign policy that drives them batty, but our existence as a free and self-governing nation.

While the Brotherhood has never been more than a marginal group in the US, its influence around the world has been anything but fringe. Its direct offshoots include Hamas and it has inspired such groups as al-Qaeda. It acts as an engine for radical jihadism. They have undermined moderate Arab governments and seek their overthrow for shari'a-based governance. The Brotherhood and its offspring present a real threat to the security of the nations of the Middle East and the oil resources they control.

That's why the US has to act with strength to those who would use American funds to fuel the Brotherhood's quest for world domination, as silly as that may appear here. We look at the plans for the Islamicization of America and scoff at the ludricrous fantasies the Brotherhood spins to make it a reality. Those plans aren't fantasies in other places, and our interests will be threatened if they achieve their goals.

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Comments (34)

Posted by Carol Herman | September 18, 2007 10:18 AM

This stuff is old. It takes advantages of our laws, the same way the Eygptians and Saud's took advantage of our public air transportation, here, in the USA. And, the bus and train routes, in Europe.

Do you know why? Because they still can. And, all we do is make this much tougher on all of us. If we didn't? Profiling would make it so uncomfortable; like the indians, in America, of old; they'd run for the hills. (See? We have an expression for it, already.)

But we know, too, there are way too many politicians invested in the current system. Which is a good thing. It saves our Constitution, as well.

And, so, we've tied the hands of law enforcement; in order to "better serve us."

But I'd like to expose something else. Something that just happened; outside of the media's perview. Where you can see that diplomats don't change expressions, when "events" take place.

So no one has an ability to "read" anything.

But, believe it or not, there are sound counter-measures at play.

For instance. All you know is that Israel did an "over-flight" into syria. Then, you've heard the denials. And, ya know what? NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE MONEY!

This ship, (which disappeared without a trace); well? You think that's the 'smart' koreans? Or do you think it could'a been something else? I'm not making this up.

I'm just saying that oddly enough the arabs need our banking system, even more than they need us.

So, if (let's say), $10-billion dollars just got blown up in smoke; whose pocketbook?

True. You won't see a single muscle move on the face of any diplomatic pants dancer. But you do know that what they show you when they'r on stage; is not at all what they're like behind the scenes.

Just you this crap doesn't make you feel so bad you lose sight of "accountability," I'd like to venture a guess, that besides "maybe nukes, maybe not," a whole lot of money has also just "disappeared."

Man, you could make a movie! You could even design a computer game! The idea? Similar to the grand Westerns Hollywood used to produce; there was more information in them about our Wild West; than any of the textbooks, today's kids are forced to read.

Nice thing about the truth. It works like OCCAM's razor.

Posted by Jay | September 18, 2007 10:41 AM

Duh, maybe it would be prudent to reduce muslim immigration, at least for a few years, as a life-long resident of Dearborn, Michigan, I must ask you all, have you heard much about the Dearborn jihadi, found in a city park in combat fatigues, blacked out face, wielding an AK-47? Probably not as the media and pc politicians are doing their best to hush it up.

Reduce muslim immigration or before long we will have civil war in the streets of the USA. Why?

Duh, Islam and the West do not mix.

Posted by unclesmrgol | September 18, 2007 11:09 AM

This is interesting. CAIR to comment further?

Posted by Sue | September 18, 2007 11:12 AM

The most influential book on Islamofascism, as I choose to call it, is "In the Shade of the Qur'an" by Sayyid Qutb. It is the most read commentary on the Qur'an in the past fifty years. Written by a rigorously trained young man born in 1906 who had memorized the Qur'an by the age of ten, it has been used to vest power in the Muslim Brotherhood. Sayyid spent ten years in prison at one point and painstakingly edited and reworked "In the Shade". He is responsible for what we have experienced in these past fifty years. The farce is that Sayyid spent two years in the U.S., in Colorado, and returned to Egypt with a total messianic belief that America and the West were so corrupt that they needed extermination. This from a virgin male who so obviously had a severe mental problem about sex that it is laughable. That jihadists look to 72 virgins might just explain what is wrong with the Middle East and why it won't be easy to eradicate these crazies.

Check it out at:

http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/thesis/loboda/loboda.pdf

Posted by Anthony (Los Angeles) | September 18, 2007 12:03 PM

While the Brotherhood has never been more than a marginal group in the US,

Mmmm...Maybe. Their members are behind an awful lot of other Muslim "advocacy" groups, such as CAIR, ISNA, and the Muslim Students Association. I'd say their influence (backed by Saudi money) is broader than we think.

Posted by Bill | September 18, 2007 12:44 PM

Jay - you are on the right track but should get a little bolder -- when you say "reduce muslim immigration" you make the standard American mistake of qualifing it - "at least for a few years". No way -- it will not fly - it needs to be stopped entirely -- also NO more students -- that foreign student crap has been raping and warping the universities in this country for 50 years - they really got entrenced in the 1960's thanks to the treasonous democaraps and they made a thorough and complete study on the sidelines of the student protests of the bolshevic's tactics and note how they have adopted the leftists organizational crap whereby there are 'dozens' of groups supporting this or that cause (demonstration) - but they all melt away if one gets in trouble or fingered for some wrong doing -- meanwhile anyone of the loons belongs to several of the 'groups'.

Posted by Conrad | September 18, 2007 1:10 PM

I am in agreement to stop muslim immigation into America. My limited experience with them shows me that they will not assimilate into our culture and they even admit it. So why are they immigating here?

I also think we should build army bases along our southern border and have the army patrol the border. I think this is the only way to stop the illegal crossings. Why? While we are distracted in a war with iraq we are seeing an invasion of our country through our southern border. Illegals are picked up on our side, sent back across, only to come back again.

The army has a license to kill intruders. How fast do you think we would stop the illegal crossings if we viewed everyone illegaly crossing the border as invaders with intent to do us in and we shot at them?

And are they not doing our culture in?

Posted by Jay | September 18, 2007 1:37 PM

I agree with you Bill (and Conrad)....I hope we could stop all muslim immigration but I was just being realistic seeing that I also would like to stop all immigration in our country for a few years at least. Will we get that? No way, so I'd settle for a reduction. :)

I have watched muslim immigrants for over 40 years here in Dearborn and over the last 10 years or so, the immigrants are much more fundamentalist and radicalized. Their allegiance is to the trans-national Islam. They don't respect nation-states, much less infidel, democratic states like ours.

As far as the souther border, our amigos to the south are crossing it in such numbers that unless it's stopped soon, it will be too late. We will be North Latin America.

Posted by AnonymousDrivel | September 18, 2007 2:08 PM

CE: "It's hard to say how seriously anyone should take this as a real contemporary threat to the US..."

Very seriously, Ed. Like a camel's nose under the tent, these groups can very influential and quite dangerous. Look at other "fringe" groups and observe how well they fight above their weight. Observe closely contemporary French, Dutch, and English acquiescence to the slow, gradual increase in both the under-assimilating Religion-of-Peace demographic and their growing political influence. Change is the only constant in life, and one can never assume that the political and cultural dynamic we have grown accustomed to cannot take a dramatic turn for the "worst".

No, these revelations about the HLF/Muslim Brotherhood indicate to me a real danger, one not likely acutely refuted in an age of political correctness and national over-accommodation. This is precisely why their legalistic and social plan of action can be so effective, if not insidious. These are not ignorant kooks.


CE: "We look at the plans for the Islamicization of America and scoff at the ludricrous fantasies the Brotherhood spins to make it a reality. Those plans aren't fantasies in other places, and our interests will be threatened if they achieve their goals."

Exactly.

Posted by KW64 | September 18, 2007 3:29 PM

The problem is not muslims, it is muslims preaching violence and hate. An Iraqi who worked for me was complaining to me over 15 years ago about the Saudi supplied/approved Wahabist imams that were pushing intolerence and hate at American Mosques. Freedom of regligion is not freedom to incite violence or engage in hate speech. A protestant minister member of the KKK who preached hate speech against Jews or other minorities would not be immune from prosecution.

Unfortunately, we turned a blind eye to this probelem even after Sheik Rahman was convicted for the first World Trade Center bombing. You have to have a lisence to be a minister. Monitor enough to catch the bad actors, revoke their lisences and if they are foreign, send them packing. If they engage in hate crimes or incite violence prosecute them.

But do not end the religious tolerance our nation was founded on. Many of the moslims who come here are victims of the very kind of extremist Jihada terror that we hate. Others just want to build the same dream our ancestors did. Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Posted by Nessus | September 18, 2007 4:19 PM

Sorry but the problem is Islam...that's the brutal truth. Islamic society has no separation between church (mosque) and state. Therefore, Islam is not just a religion but a political ideology and a primitive and dangerous one at that. There is no such thing as "Islamism" or an "Islamist" - those are weasel words made up to get around calling a spade, a spade.

There are two possible solutions: 1) Islam reforms itself or 2) Western nations reduce or stop Muslim immigration. Period.

Look at all the near horrible, terrorist incidents that have happened in the USA over the past 3-4 years. Almost all are Muslim immigrants (either legal or illegal). Lableing this as "home-grown terrorism" is nonsense. These people didn't grow out of the ground; they weren't born here, they are immigrants.

The truth can be a difficult pill to swallow.

Posted by Conrad | September 18, 2007 4:21 PM

"But do not end the religious tolerance our nation was founded on."

I agree with that. But my experience with Muslims is that they do not wnat to assimulate into our culture. It seems that this attitude comes from their religious belief. So I ask, why do they want to come to our country (a secular society) and live in an environment that is at odds with their religious way of life?

One particular instance comes to mind when I was living on the island of Rota, part of a U.S. commonwealth called the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, (CNMI).

The local people needed some labor to help them on their farms, so they brought in two groups from Bangladesh. One group were Christain, and the other group was muslim with their religious leader to guide them. Both groups spoke english.

The Christain Group assimulated with the local traditions and integrated with the people. They were very friendly and got along good.

The Muslim group kept with their ways and in their free time kept with themselves. They would not eat the local diet that included pork and had to be fed their own diet. They were willing to come to another culture to work but they wanted no part of the culture or it's traditions.

I think this is also going on in Europe and America. We are very tolerant of other religions but I think this is one religion we cannot afford to ignore in what they want for the world.

Their view is different than ours. We are willing to live side by side, but their intent appears to want to take over. Look at how it is tolerated within their group to practice religious intolerance.

We are at war with a religious trans national group of radical islamic fundamentalists. I think it is time to wake up and protect ourselves by deporting all muslims until this war is over and we can sort out who is with us and who is against us.

The fact is we are at war and under martial law. This is no picnic.

Posted by mw | September 18, 2007 5:19 PM

"It's hard to say how seriously anyone should take this..."

No it's not. Anyone who takes it seriously is as delusional as the people who wrote it.

But it is a pretty good tool for stirring up prejudice and hatred against 1.2 billion people on this planet. It is also a great tool for those who are consumed by fear and hatred to advocate sacrificing civil rights and freedom on the the altar of their prejudice and fear. As is clearly evident in this comment thread:

"it is time to wake up and protect ourselves by deporting all muslims until this war is over and we can sort out who is with us and who is against us."

"The fact is we are at war and under martial law."

"Sorry but the problem is Islam..."

"How fast do you think we would stop the illegal crossings if we viewed everyone illegally crossing the border as invaders with intent to do us in and we shot at them?"

"before long we will have civil war in the streets of the USA. Why? Duh, Islam and the West do not mix."

Whew. Ed, you've got some serious haters here.
It is surprising to me that people who claim to be patriots can be so quick to advocate judging individuals based solely on their faith, are so eager to give up constitutional freedoms to a militarized state, and are so completely ignorant of what our country and constitution is all about.

Fortunately they are as marginal a part of the US as a whole as the people who wrote that Muslim brotherhood document are a marginal part of Islam as a whole.

Posted by Fight4TheRight | September 18, 2007 5:29 PM

Spot on Nessus!

Kudos to you in your correct definition of islam as a political ideology and not a religion.

As for "home-grown" terrorists...again you are right. This is a joke. The sooner we in America realize that the strategies revealed in this Holy Land Foundation trial are just that...strategies, the soon we will realize how serious the threat is among us.

While some may think the American people should now be aware of this threat to our very existence, we have the Democrats again rolling the red carpet out for the destruction of America. Does anyone remember seeing this from Howard Dean?

" Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean told American Muslims gathered in Rosemont to think beyond voter registration drives.
"You need to run for political office," Dean said Saturday. "The only way you can achieve your goals is to stand up and say who you are and be proud of it."

Here's the link of that story:
http://www.suntimes.com/lifestyles/religion/539406,CST-NWS-Islam02s1.article

Fact is this. The MSM wants Americans to believe that there are moderate muslims and then a rag tag band of extremists. The fact is, this world is made up of jihadists who wage their active war against the world of infidels and the "moderates" are simply jihadists whose time to enter the violent jihad hasn't come, or who are earmarked for this covert form of jihad.

Remember the shock that the jihadists in Scotland and Britain were doctors? Doctors! Well, welcome to another example of "moderates" being called upon to act. And get used to it, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Posted by ck | September 18, 2007 6:03 PM

Just because there are some extremists who are completely nuts (newsflash), does not mean that we have to take our military and create more animosity towards us. If we left their Mecca and stopped supporting Israel, the number of fighters and the pool they have to pick from would drop drastically. If we were not in Iraq, the numbers would be drastically lower.

If we really had to base our military response on the level of insanity of the alleged perpetrators, we'd be in a world of hurt I would think.

Lest we forget, we've had problems with White Christian groups who hated our government for a much longer time than Islamic Terrorists. And I think most of us can agree that when we send the army in to get the homegrown terrorists, it's probably not as good of a choice as sending law enforcement to handle it.

Posted by Conrad | September 18, 2007 6:57 PM

"But it is a pretty good tool for stirring up prejudice and hatred against 1.2 billion people on this planel." It is amazing that some people can call language of self preservation language of hatred.

The experiences I have had with Muslims are real and I know how brain washing can sway people.

Are you a Muslim? Then I can understand where you are coming from.

It is like cooking a live frog. You put it in the pot and slowly turn up the heat. It doesn't know what is happening until it is too late.

I don't want to end up like that so I call it like I see it and hope others are seeing what I am seeing. It is not hatred - it is self preservation.

I don't hate mexicans - infact I like many maxican americans. But when I know our southern border is being overrun and nothing is being done about it by our Federal Government - and it is one of their few constitutional obligations to secure the borders - then it is my obligation as a citizen to speak up about it and hold them to their task to secure the border. What is hateful about that?

Are you one of those 1.2 billion people on this planet that my comments may be stirring up prejudice and hatred against? You are misreading me.

Posted by Otter | September 18, 2007 6:58 PM

'If we left their Mecca '

wtF!?!

NO non-muslim of US origin HAS EVER BEEN IN MECCA.

mecca is part of the Hijaz. The Hijaz is the 'holy land' of islam. The Hijaz is 1/6 of Saudi Arabia, AND NO NON-MUSLIM OF US ORIGIN HAS EVER BEEN THERE.

That is a Lie by obl. He claims All of Saudi Arabia is 'holy land.'

'If we left their Mecca '

We should leave it covered in fused sand.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=5354

As for Israel: even if islam managed to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth, the jihad against the rest of us would continue. Read the Damned koran! I have.

Posted by Waldo | September 18, 2007 8:09 PM

I wouldn't be quite this sanguine about this, partly because I remembered this article from four years ago:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A33313-2003Dec26?language=printer

But the situation must have improved by now.

Posted by Eric | September 18, 2007 8:15 PM

Captain Ed says:
That's why the US has to act with strength to those who would use American funds to fuel the Brotherhood's quest for world domination, as silly as that may appear here. We look at the plans for the Islamicization of America and scoff at the ludicrous fantasies the Brotherhood spins to make it a reality. Those plans aren't fantasies in other places, and our interests will be threatened if they achieve their goals.

Eric says:
There are no small battles in this war. We must use every opportunity that we find to thwart AQ. Finance control is a very powerful weapon that the US and others have to hinder AQ. And the nice part about it – no lives lost.

I say use everything we have to fight them.

Posted by Eric | September 18, 2007 8:27 PM

Jay says:
Duh, maybe it would be prudent to reduce muslim immigration, at least for a few years, as a life-long resident of Dearborn, Michigan, I must ask you all, have you heard much about the Dearborn jihadi, found in a city park in combat fatigues, blacked out face, wielding an AK-47? Probably not as the media and pc politicians are doing their best to hush it up.
Reduce muslim immigration or before long we will have civil war in the streets of the USA. Why?
Duh, Islam and the West do not mix.

Eric says:
Not so fast. The US has not been plagued by an Islamic problem. There may be people here who don’t like us, but aside from the original 911 attack, I have not seen it in very large scale. I know that what I’m about to say may seem dumb and even mildly racist, but in my neighborhood, an Islamic gentleman and his son have opened a gas station/ store. I buy beer from him and he’s a nice guy. I see him working 60+ hours per week, and his son. He’s not a jihadist and I’m certain of it. I think he’s more typical than the bad seeds that you might be talking about. We can’t judge immigrants based on a couple of college students who got caught. Instead, let’s get rid of the bad folks and replace them with those who are yearning to be free.

There are people who want to come to the US and be mainstream – especially people from Iraq and Iran. Take a look at this:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/16/youssif.spiderman/#cnnSTCVideo

Posted by ck | September 18, 2007 8:39 PM

Otter... So sorry to offend you so badly... Apparently they don't want us there... Multiple reasons for that, one being Mecca is located very close to where we have a huge military presence (get over the semantics...)
Another reason is the leadership in Saudi Arabia is too Pro-US for most of their tastes... oh well... either way, it would help a whole lot if we took them out...
Of course we need to have an alternative to oil before we can do that... And I guess the oil companies haven't made quite enough money to let that technology prosper yet... So I suppose we'll continue to allow chaos to grip parts of the world until Big Oil has had their share... Then we'll leave them alone with nothing to sell and they'll end up being the next mass of refugees... good times...

Posted by coldwarrior415 | September 18, 2007 9:01 PM

As long as groups such as CAIR abound on network news and MSM and continue to have such a loud voice unchecked, their lies and propaganda unchallenged, the entire Moslem community here in the US will continue to be objectified, targetted and exploited.

CAIR = ACLU.

The minute we "go after" Moslems merely for being Moslem, or deport Moslems merely for being Moslem, or deny immigration to Moslems for merely being Moslem, we will have lost and lost big time, and there will be no rolling back the clock, either.

Over the past century we have prosecuted extremists of all stripes. We should continue to do so if the extremists in question pose a threat to public safety. As for religious groups advocating violence, the minute they do so those persons are no longer a "religious" group but a political advocacy group and should be viewed as such. If directly advocating or involve themselves in violence, they thus become a criminal group. Nail them.

Individuals, whether ministers, priests, rabbis or imams who call for violence should be identified, indicted and prosecuted. Citizens and legal immigrants who do NOT advocate violence should be left alone to pursure life, liberty and happiness.

The most recent case in this part of the country unravelled because a number of Moslems overheard a number of islamists planning to cause mayhem. They did the American thing. They called the FBI. Three islamists are now incarcerated awaiting trial.

Seems we have either become collectively afraid of offending those who by their actions offend us, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, seems too many are more than willing to round them all up and send them off on a leaky boat to Arabistan. Neither is wise, and neither shows any intellect put into the equation at any point. Both play into the hands of those seeking to recruit followers for jihad against the U.S..

In my community and surrounding areas we have had a rich history of Moslems who have contributed to our overall national well-being. Some are impossible to identify on the street by their clothing, others still wear traditional garb. But in this area almost all, hell, just about all, are more concerned with raising kids, keeping businesses running, trying to make payrolls and house payments, pay taxes and complain about taxes, complain about what the county commissioners are or are not doing, are worried about job losses, garbage collection and potholes. In short, they are American.

Unless we demand that current laws be enforced, and advocates of violence of any stripe be brought to justice, we will get nowhere. When we talk of mass Moslem deportations or refusing to allow Moslems from immigrating we are going to offer more and more ammunition to those who recruit, indoctrinate and dispatch deadly followers into our midst.

I think as a society we are smarter than that. At least I hope so.

Posted by KW64 | September 18, 2007 9:38 PM

Coldwarrier415-- I like your posts and I am glad to have you at my back on this subject.

I've worked with muslims from Lebanon, Iraq, Eritrea and have friends in social clubs that are Pakistani and Bangladeshi and have enough contact that I know well enough to have a good Idea how they and their spouses think. One was a Baathist that defended Saddam when she came here but She had no use for Al Qaeda. Why would she lie about that when being for Saddam made her an object of scorn. (After the invasion when she saw the films of what had gone on in Iraq, she changed her mind about Saddam.)

These are productive intelligent people. In no way do we want to make enemies of these people or lose their valuable contribution to America. As I said in my post above, they were the ones who put me on to the problem of intolerant imams and incendiary literature being sent to American mosques by Saudi sources and how the Saudis sent money to help build their mosques and so it was difficult to refuse them.

I found it hard to believe over a decade ago, so one of them showed me a book that was supplied from Saudi Arabia that claimed Shia moslems had tails. We laughed of course but the point was not that American citizens who practiced Islam were a danger, it was that there was a foreign influence of intolerance and hate that needed to be confronted here and where it was coming from. Sadly, as a society we ignored it.

Now our best source of defense is as you point out, Americans in the moslem community who reject and finger the bad actors. If people come here with an attitude like the Baathist I mentioned above, give them a generation and see what their children are like. American culture is easy to adopt and most will.

Posted by mw | September 18, 2007 9:45 PM

"You are misreading me." - conrad

Ok. Exactly what am I misreading?

"it is time to wake up and protect ourselves by deporting all muslims" - conrad

I read that as prejudging an individual based on stereotypes of their faith. That is the definition of prejudice and bigotry. How do you read that?

"The fact is we are at war and under martial law." - conrad

No we are not under martial law. I read you as suggesting we should be. Martial law means the suspension of individual rights, civil liberties, constitutional protections in favor of a militarized state. That is the definition of martial law. What am I misreading?

"How fast do you think we would stop the illegal crossings if we viewed everyone illegaly crossing the border as invaders with intent to do us in and we shot at them?" - conrad

I read that as advocating the killing of unarmed and innocent people who only want the freedom we offer in the US, in order to make sure we get the bad actors who are also trying to get in. That's how I read it. Hard to think there is any other way to read it.

"And are they not doing our culture in?" - conrad

No they are not. The vast majority of Muslim-Americans in this country (like the vast majority of Christian-Americans)want only to make a good life for themselves and their families and enjoy the freedom that our country offers. That makes our culture richer and stronger. I read your statement as a blanket generalization based on a person's religious belief, which is the definition of bigotry. That makes you a bigot. That is how I read it. How do you read it?

To answer your last question about my religion...

Not that it is any of your business, but I am a Jew. I have some historical familiarity with what can happen in a country when bigots are permitted to scapegoat a religious minority for everything that is wrong in the country or in their own lives. They (the bigots) are particularly dangerous when they start calling for the wholesale deportation and purging of people of a particular religious belief or culture. Almost identical language about the Jews refusing to assimilate was used in Germany.

Somebody is this thread said we need to call a spade a spade. I agree.

It is particularly important to call a bigot a bigot.

Posted by jaeger51 | September 18, 2007 10:06 PM

It's time to seriously investigate all Islamic organizations in the US and determine who's doing what. Certain people and groups should be deported. Analogous to the examination made of the various German-American groups prior and at the start of WW2. Some were non-threatening, some were working for the Nazis. The Nazi groups were broken up. Look at the past to see what to do in the future, it always works.

Posted by ck | September 18, 2007 11:17 PM

I suppose some people don't remember how poorly Germans were treated during WWII in parts of the U.S.
In my hometown, Columbus, there is a district called German village. At one time it was thriving with breweries, restaurants, shops and everything else a thriving neighborhood has. WWII came along and the non german residents started distancing themselves. German Village deteriorated quickly until it was a run down ghetto. It stayed a ghetto for decades until people started putting it back together piece by piece. Now it's a fantastic historic district, but the point is that Germans were run out of town in WWII. We don't want to do that this time around (well some of you do), and it won't do much good. The fear and anger is misplaced. We have lived with all sorts of people for so long and we've been alright for the most part. If you start being prejudice and attributing all of these bad things on a religion that encompasses a billion or more people, then you're setting yourself up for misery and mayhem. Work hard to bridge the divide, not widen it. This isn't the 1500s when you could keep your enemy an ocean away, the world is small nowadays. You will never get rid of all the people you seem to want to, so you better start making nice.

Posted by Conrad | September 18, 2007 11:18 PM

mw - you make a good point of criticizing - how about offering some solutions to our border problem? It is easy to compare present day statements with the past and what happened then but that is not contributing to solutions. Or do you think we should sit tight and let the train run over us?

Do you really think all those people crossing our southern border are innocent poor people just seeking a better life? Get real, we have a problem at our southern border. Why don't you go down there and see for yourself and talk to some of these people that have to live with the problem.

Sure some of my statements have been bold, but what do you do, open the store and let it be cleaned out? Each country has their own culture and I don't see any other country opening their borders to let another culture take them over. Are we somehow different?

And the Muslims:

So what do you suggest we do to determine what Muslims want to live here and assimulate and which ones are here to take us over? So you have had a good experience with Muslims? I have had a different experience with my encounters with them.

Now that you have determined from my statements that I am a bigot - put your 2 cents in for how we deal with our problems - or do you think we don't have problems?

"I have some historical familiarity with what can happen in a country when bigots are permitted to scapegoat a religious minority for everything that is wrong in the country or in their own lives." Let come up to the present. You throw statements like that out and don't offer any solutions. That is a dangerous projection. Are you comparing present day American with Nasi Germany and WW2?

Posted by patrick neid | September 19, 2007 5:33 AM

Long before clandestine muslim groups have an impact here in America we will know whether the war on terror has been won or lost.

The Bin Laden's et al all know that the road to the caliphate, with its evil cousin--sharia law, runs through Europe after taking over the middle eastern oil supplies. They have long mentioned that plunging the world into a depression would almost guarantee their success. While they make use of all modern contrivances they ultimately have no use for such. The seventh century is their goal.

Europe is at least 25 years ahead of us in terms of real or imagined problems with muslim population growth and immigration. If there is any truth to the "brotherhood" it will be clearly seen in Europe first. If the rumors prove correct my guess is Europe will attempt another pogrom.

Ultimately most people will fight for their culture when cornered. Admittedly if you wait to long you lose.


Posted by Stew | September 19, 2007 5:52 AM

Just a reminder about the idea of are they here.
They now maintain paramilitary training camps in rural America owned and operated by Pakistani muslims. Their need to have them here is twofold. First, they need to reduce the scrutiny of the government when they fly back and forth to offshore training. Second, where better to train than in a free country that protects your "legal rights." (love those trial lawyers and ACLU)
Anyone heard of the impact Islamburg is having on life in Hancock, NY?

Posted by Nessus | September 19, 2007 6:41 AM

mw - I say again, Islam is very much a political ideology. I'm not a Muslim, I'm not a scholar, but I've studied it for years and it's a all-encompassing social/spiritual/political ideology.

Individual Muslims may be wonderful people but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm an American and a patriot to boot. I try to look at the big picture and the health of the nation. I look at the cultural/political impact of letting large numbers of Muslims settle here.

Where Muslims settle in large numbers, mosques go up, madrassas go up, Islamic charter schools to up, halal foods are pushed, sharia law is pushed. This is akin to allowing communists to settle and set up shop in our country during the cold war. We didn't let them immigrate here in large numbers and we watched them closely.


As far as those of you who think "it's all our fault" because of Iraq, you're deluded and uninformed. There have been many (perhaps 15 or so) incidents of terror or near terror over the past few years, right here on our country.

Almost all of the incidents involve immigrants (legal and illegal) and almost all of the perps are Muslim immigrants - driving cars into pedistrians, shooting innocents, being caught with bomb-making materials, (Fort Dix, San Francisco, Dearborn last week, Florida college students (from Egypt) along the east coast with "fireworks" in the trunk of their car, Caroline car-jihad, Seattle shooting) shall I continue? The media love to label this "home-grown" terror.....none of these perps were born in this country. Is that "home-grown"?

Posted by Nessus | September 19, 2007 8:07 AM

Fight4TheRight - thanks and you are spot on as well!

Yes I remember the doctors in Scotland; have you heard about the incident here in Dearborn, Michigan last week, with a muslim medical student? He was found in combat fatigues, blackened out face, wielding an AK-47 in a neighborhood park? Residents spotted him and called the police, he resisted arrest and even pointed his AK at the police. Guess what the city government and media are saying now? "He's just a misguied youth who is having difficulty adjusting to his new life in the US". What a pathetic "pc" joke. Search for the Dearborn jihadi Hezbollah sympathizer on the web.

The naive among us believe Muslims are no different than Methodists; they are naive and stupid. Muslims in our country openly, publicly say they want to replace the constitution with sharia law and what's the reply? Silence.

Posted by Joseph Eversole | September 19, 2007 12:19 PM

The issue here is assimilation. If you have no desire to assimilate, and your culture is diametrically opposed to the central core of this country, then you don't need to be here. Don't immigrate. If you have, please leave. I understand France has some openings. Now, if you open a store and sell beer, it would be an indication that you are willing to assimilate (in so far as you don't force your religions beliefs regarding alchohol on non-believers). The fact that you choose to not drink isn't an indication of non-assimilation. Therein lies the difference. Live and let live, or begone.

Posted by Nessus | September 19, 2007 12:51 PM

You're right Joseph but only half right. Assimilation is vital but what affects it is numbers. When the number of immigrants is very high (which it is and has been for 15-20 years), the process of assimilation breaks down.

As long as we have people of both parties that think that our country is nothing more than an "economic market", and not a physical place with a history, heritage and people who have lived here for centuries, this mass transferrence of peoples from around the world to the US will continue. And we will become a truly balkanized, multi-lingual mess.

Numbers matter.

Posted by EagleJim | September 19, 2007 1:53 PM

The Brotherhood threat should be taken extremely seriously. The effort to take over this country is part of a hundred year plan. We have only to watch the Islamization of Europe to see how a slow and purposeful campaign can have effect over time....one small slice of the salami at a time.

And, here in this country, we have the Left-Right divide that will be used by the Islamists to further their political goals. We've already seen a couple of conferences of Islamists and Western Leftist (one was in Canada last year)that have attempted to identify common areas of interest and effort.

No, while it may look like a ludicrous campaign to some in this country (and obviously to the writer of this blog article)it is a very serious danger to this country.

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