Captain's Quarters -

But somehow, it will all fall apart.

The lesson of this story is that quotas do not work in the free market. There is a quota on Mexican immigrants which is, in effect, a labor quota. Businesses do not want this quota, and one way or another they will work around it. If America were a Communist country, then maybe it could enforce arbitrary quotas. But since it is capitalist, it can't and won't.

Instead, the outer limit of the anti-immigration push is to treat illegal immigrants as second-class Americans. Since banning them won't make them go away, we would do better to accept that they live here and recognize their unalienable rights. That is the only way to take seriously the precept that government is for the people, and not the other way around.

I see a lot of ways around this new system too. Especially for the unskilled laborer.

I think we just have to bite the bullet and have a biometric tamper-proof National ID card for everybody in the country--permanent cards for US citizens, temporary cards for visitors and residents. And without it, you can't work, you can't bank, you can't drive, and you can't deal with any level of government.

I think using this system will help to 'debug' it and is an essential requirement if we're going to reform immigration.

Wow! Bring on Big Brother!

Seriously, I thought Republicans wanted LESS government intrusion into people's daily lives. How then can you justify the enormous intrusion of the government dictating who you can and can't employ, and investigating (and penalizing) you when you say "I'll decide that for myself, thanks"?

I always think back to the days of Laura Ingalls and "Little House on the Prairie". I kind of use that as my template for true freedom. Sure, life was harsh sometimes, but you could do what you wanted, say what you wanted, work where you wanted (if you could find work), and hire who you wanted. The idea of some government agent riding into De Smet, SD, in 1885 and checking everyone's employment credentials is ludicrous. And to me, if it was ludicrous then, then it should be ludicrous now.

John S,

I'm with you, man! Let's get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and all of the rest of the entitlement programs that require government identification, and return the money to the people!

If you're not for that, then it's incumbent on government to make sure that people aren't defrauding the system. It's really not that hard to figure out.

Actually, "banning" illegals is having an effect...the number of Mexican illegals, for example, returning permanently to Mexico has grown this past year. They cite the inability to function in American society as illegals and the threat of deportation as their reason for leaving parts of Georgia and Florida, as an example.

The problem is not about needing the labor, of course we need it.

The problem is that there is no current successful means to obtain that labor legally, and little impetus to do so.

As soon as one makes a statement that we need to stop the flow of illegals, then one is immediately branded as a racist.

This problem is not about legal immigration, it is about illegal immigration. There are security concerns, legitimate concerns, as to who is crossing our open borders weach day.

There is also concern about wage deflation when a community has an abundant supply of illegal immigrants who are hired under the table or on street corners for cash only. One merely has to look at Loudon County in Northern Virginia to see the influx of illegals, and the outflow of legitimate labor. Not only that, but their wages and those of Americans and legal workers are at risk. If a farmer can make a living paying his workers under thetable, offering no workers comp et al., he is exploiting a class of workers. If a trained construction worker, having paid for the cost of his technical training and licensure, cannot obtain work because he has to charge the current legal, often union-set wages, and cannot find work because he is pushed out of the market by illegal workers and those who hire them, what is the solution?

Will America accept higher prices across the board for having their produce, products, goods and services provided at a legal sufficient wage?

Or will we allow the employment of illegals on a mass scale to continue to depress wages?

Will we accept the financial burden of paying the costs for medical treatment and social services for illegals when we seem to have a major problem providing the same for Americans and legal immigrants?

The sham of saying that it is too costly or too much trouble to verify the several million fake or false of stolen SSAN's is stating that we have no choice but to accept depressed wages, curtailment of necessary services and assumption of the myriad other costs and allow illegals to come and go at will in communities across the country. And at a time when we are all hard pressed to care for our own, those Americans and legal immigrants.

I think we just have to bite the bullet and have a biometric tamper-proof National ID card for everybody in the country--permanent cards for US citizens, temporary cards for visitors and residents.

Or an RFID chip implanted in the forehead. What a revelation.

Okay, joking aside, a national id card isn't such a terrible idea, because basically, Social Security numbers already are one. But this "biometric tamper-proof" talk is naive. Above all, labor quotas are a crock.

RBMN--

Instead of a tamper-proof card, why don't we simply implant a chip in everyone with that information? That way they can't lose it, and it can't be forged. And also make it so nobody can conduct any monetary transaction, including purchasing food, without their chip being verified.

In all seriousness, though, I find the cries for a national ID card without which it is impossible to do anything extremely frightening. That kind of stuff is for Europe, not us.

The number of Mexican illegals, for example, returning permanently to Mexico has grown this past year.

Don't worry, they'll come back.

The problem is that there is no current successful means to obtain that labor legally

Of course that's the problem. Whenever they try to solve the problem, a certain faction flies off the handle and cries "AMNESTY!" We'll never get anywhere if the plan is to first enforce the labor quota and then repeal it. The quota is a fiction that withers before the free market, so a good time to repeal it would be yesterday. Even if it amounts to an amnesty.

There are security concerns, legitimate concerns, as to who is crossing our open borders each day.

That's true, but they would get a lot more security if they only chased down those who come here to kill people, not pick tomatoes. None of the 9/11 hijackers spoke Spanish, you know. With the unrealistic system that they have, terrorists can hide all the more easily among infiltrating tomato-pickers. When they cross the border, that is. You won't find terrorists by trawling for Social Security numbers in the tomato fields.

And before anybody makes any assumptions, I am totally in favor of border fences. Make 'em high, wide, and impossible to cross... and also, I'm in favor of deportation of illegals who break the law. But the onerous government regulations over employment practices is beyond reasonable, in my opinion.

Re: John S. -- October 12, 2007 10:47 AM

This isn't Grandma and Grandpa's America, where most people stayed in one town, and families knew their neighbors. A lot of people don't even know who lives in the next apartment. As for the ID card, if you never ask for anything (from your employer, from your bank, or from your government) you'll never have to use it. Live in a shack in the woods. Make rustic "folk art" that you sell on the side of the road, and don't vote. You'll never have to use your ID card.

Jim Harris,

The major problem, the elephant in the living room, is that we have no idea at all who is here.

We have estimates of between 14 million and 28 million illegals within our borders. Who are they? Are they ALL in the Salinas Valley picking lettuce? Are they ALL in the Northern Virginia DC suburbs raking lawns and constructing houses? Are they ALL students from abroad who have overstayed their visas? Are they ALL sweatshop labor in New York, New Jersey and L.A.? We do not know. We should know.

DHS and Treasury have established a simple means to verify SSAN's. Now, under injunction, a part of this program has been shelved. Insanity.

When we get to the point when the mere questioning of who is here within our borders slides into charges of racism or wasting money going after lettuce pickers and not the "real" terrorists all of us lose, and can potentially lose a lot more than our wages or access to closed down local hospitals.

Terrorists in any country do not annouce their arrivals and departures. They blend in. They become part of the normal pattern of ingress and egress from one country to another. Student visas are a very basic part of the problem. Lack of verification of status, lack of follow-up on academic status and location are but two of the problems with that program.

But at the root of it all, is the fact that we do not know who is here within our borders.

No, we will not stop all the illegals nor all of the terrorists but incrementally ratcheting up our ability to actually know who is here and what they are doing and where they are living goes a long way to solving the illegal immigrant problem and the terrorists in our midst problem.

As for terrorists, AQ is currently focusing on indigenous recruitment, in countries abroad and here within the US. They understand that a swarthy looking student who is not in school and is doing other things not consistent with his status will bring that person to the attention of law enforcement. If they, AQ, recognizes this, then our efforts to thwart the illegal entry or overstaying of visas among potential jihadis is having at least some effect on their planning. A small victory on our side.

Bottom line, if we do not take pro-active measures consistent with Law, to actually find out who is here, who is here legally, who is here ilegally, then we will lose in a major way across any number of facets in our society.

I am not comfortable with the laissez-faire, nor am I comfortable with the obstructionists who try to lessen my access to Life Liberfty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Checking SSAN's routinely in employment, in enrollment in schools, in other areas seems to be a pretty small price to pay for our finding out who is here, and then finding out who is here for legititmate reasons and who is not.

The major problem, the elephant in the living room, is that we have no idea at all who is here.

But that's mostly because we, or rather they, don't want to know. It really isn't all that hard to find 20 million people, if you want to. But they don't want to admit that Mexican immigrants have busted the arbitrary quota that was set for them. You may not realize the lengths that go to deny that big gray wall right in front of them that sounds and smells like an elephant. Millions of these "illegal" immigrants actually have Social Security numbers. They have them to pay federal taxes. The government knows who they are and even collects their taxes. They just don't want to admit that these taxpayers are over the immigration quota.

They will never control the border until they get real. If they just wanted to document all of those Mexicans in their job raids, it wouldn't be hard. Cleaning them out of the job market and sending them back to Mexico is the impossible part. Seeing the elephant requires amnesty.

I expect Breyer Jr. will issue a permanent injunction forbidding Ms. Keehner from talking to the media. Hillary will bump Breyer Jr. to the ninth on 01/01/09 just in time for the long delayed appeal. He will say I did a hell of a job on the lower court and bump it to Breyer Sr. Who will say well done bro.

"Instead, the outer limit of the anti-immigration push is to treat illegal immigrants as second-class Americans."

Illegal immigrants are not Americans at all, first, second, or any other class. They're not even "immigrants" in the legal sense of the term. They have not applied for, nor can receive, nationalization (you know, citizenship) through the immigration process since they have bypassed that process altogether. Since they have not applied for, and have not received, permission to immigrate into America through legal processes (and yes, you do need permission from the federal government to immigrate here) they can be, and should be, captured, detained, and deported by the proper authorities and through the proper legal process without violating any Constitutional rights.

Also, falsifying documents like W4's is a crime (it's a form of tax fraud), as is any other form of identity fraud. It is not unconstitutional for the local, state, or federal government to require business to follow existing laws and check that their potential employees are providing the proper, legal documentation. I must also provide proper, legal documentation about my identity for bank loans, car insurance, the purchase of cigarettes, alcohol, ect. All of this is required by law and none of this is unconstitutional.

The Constitution does not provide me with the right to lie about my identity (or anything else) without the risk of legal and/or social repercussions. For example, as a new employee I am required to provide two form of identification to all perspective employers. I am also required by law to fill out tax related documents like the W4. If I fail to provide proper identification, or refuse to fill out a W4, I can be, and should be, refused employment. I can also be charged with document and identity fraud if the documents and identity I provide is knowingly false.

If it were later discovered that I lied to my employer about my identity and falsified documents (like the W4), that employer can terminate my employment immediately and their is no legal recourse available to me as I perpetrated fraud by lying about my identity and falsifying documents. Since I can not justify fraud, there is no way I could successfully (or even reasonably) argue that I was wrongfully terminated by my employer.

With the unrealistic system that they have, terrorists can hide all the more easily among infiltrating tomato-pickers. When they cross the border, that is.

Reduce the infiltrating illegal aliens, and terrorists won't have them to hide among.

There is a program for importing agricultural workers, so that argument is bogus. It really is about having cheap, exploitable, labor.

We've had an amnesty before, they told us it would solve the problem and it only got worse. We don't believe in amnesty any more.

Part of the problem is the system relies on reporting from the bottom up to start with.

Note the 10 employee exemption. What is to prevent them from having 50 under the table employees who don't exist are far as the system goes?

Also why does it take a threshold percentage for the letters to go out? One employee out of 1600 is still a potential illegal / identity theft participant.

There was a case here recently where a lawn service company was shut down due to the fact they were illegals from the bottom up to the very top.

No license from the city for a business license, no liability bonds posted, no payments into the unemployment / workmans comp system, no taxes collected , no documentation for either the workers or the ones running the business.

Oh and 100% were illegals, top to bottom.

"Seeing the elephant requires amnesty."

Amnesty is not the answer. It will not prevent others from entering America illegally and will only reward that illegal behavior. By that argument, the only way to combat any crime is to grant amnesty to all criminals for the crimes they have committed.

There is no single fix for the illegal immigration problem. Since this problem affect several sectors of American society, it will take several concurrent methods to deal with it. It will require that the borders be secured, that law enforcement look for and detain illegals, that businesses be punished for providing employment to illegals, that property owners, bank loan official, and anyone else who knowing provide the illegals with residential assistance be punished. It also required a commitment by foreign governments to insure that their citizens are not trying to enter another country illegally.

This is not an easy prospect but it can work if all the people involved work together and not try to abort the process. This included the American people. We, as citizens of this country, have a duty to protect our fellow citizens from criminals. This means that Americans need to take part in the process and report known or suspected illegals. Until this is done, the problem will remain.

John S

What a crock of liberal strawman and deflection.

First off the Bush administration is only finally enforcing a law that was passed by a bipartisan congress to make it a law.

Did you not learn that process in school?

Second you foolish reach back to yesterday is a crock.

Back then you didn't need a drivers license or insurance to operate a horse and buggy either.

So all you are doing is in essence spamming the thread with post of only tangential relationship to the topic.

I, too, am in favor of a national ID card. One color for citizens, another for legal permanent residents, another for student/work visa holders, etc. Biometric, secure, and required for registering to vote, registering kids in school, renting an apartment, getting a mortgate, opening a bank account, getting a job, any kind of license, etc.

This is not the 19th century. This is NOW, in a high-tech, digital world where everyone and eveything is connected. There is no other way to make sure people are who they say they are, whether for employment, voting, or whatever.

I'm in Europe a lot. The French and Italians all have ID cards and it is not a burden.

I know many Americans will hate national ID cards, as our national mythology makes us all out to be yeoman farmers on the plains beholden to no one. Well, that's over and has been for decades. It's time to move on.

Scott, one of my son in laws, whom I much admire, is named Scott. I wish he had written your post.

My recollection of 1984 is that Big Brother had control comparable to Stalin because he used many snitches as did Stalin as well as having audio/video cameras nearly everywhere. A nearly incorruptible ID card is nothing like 1984. It is long past the time when we should have one.

I don't know whether any of the 9/11 terrorists spoke Spanish or not. However, some of the suspected terrorists coming across our southern border do speak Spanish even though they are Arabs from the middle East. They stop in El Salvador or Mexico or wherever and learn the local dialect and vernacular.

Conditions certainly have changed in this country since 1790 when the population was 3,929,827, and between 1790 and 1860 when the population swelled to 31,747,514 due to immigation that was encouraged by the federal government. These numbers are recorded by the historian Charles Bancroft, in his book, "The Footprints of Time: and a complete analysis of our American system of Government."

Our country was populated and built by immigrants. Immigration was encouraged.

Now that our country has grown to maturity we have a problem with how to limit the immigration that in the past was so much encouraged.

We are also forgetting that we have come from a past when people really knew what un - alien - able rights were. Break a federal or state statute now, or don't voluntarily pay income tax and a lien is placed on your name in "all caps" and your bank account is wiped out. What happened to our unalienable rights?

One of our unalienable rights is not to have to carry an ID card. I hear some saying they are willing to give that right away for the sake of an "imaginary" security against illigal immigration and terrorists. Think twice about that!

Our unalienable rights come from our creator - not the federal government. The judge is right for what he did - it is for our protection.

Remember before WW2 when labor was not taxed? Our government ran on excise taxes. With the great deal came property registration, SSN, birth in hospitals so people could be registered by a birth certificate. Who benefitted by that? The federal government.

Our unalienable rights come with a responsibility to protect our rights. Our creator does not need to see an ID card to know us. Our government is not even "flesh and blood" so who needs to see an ID card?

I agree that we need to control immigartion - but not with the use of ID cards. ID cards will lead to many abuses by the agents of government to control us.

We need our army on the borders.

I believe that the federal government is not interested in controlling immigation because they make money from the taxes collected from illigals working here.

It is interesting that NAFTA was supposted to create jobs in Mexico but evidently the mexicans don't seem to think NAFTA has done them any good. What happened?

I think the solution to our immigration problem is to elect representatives that represent the wishes of the people. The people want the borders secured. We don't need an ID card to accomplish that - do we?

We do need reliable ID, which is not provided by a card to be carried. Today, reliable ID can be on line and based on photo/fingerprints/iris/retinal or whatever, to verify who you say you are if and when needed.

The laughable photo ID that one shows to airlines creates no real security for fliers. Any college student knows how to create or obtain fake ID for entering bars, etc., and fake ID for illegals is easily available on the street most anywhere in the country.

Iraq is being stabilized by having portable devices that create such for everyone, so that the terrorists can be now sorted from the good guys.

Secure and accurate ID matching for law enforcement, voting, air travel, etc. is something I would welcome. Civil rights and civil responsibilities are two sides of the same coin, and you cannot have one without the other.

Thanks for following up on this. Too bad National Review does not display the same level of interest.

Jim Harris

There is a quota on Mexican immigrants which is, in effect, a labor quota.

So in your copy of the Constitution, immigration is not a matter for the Federal government, but for our corrupt and incompetent businessmen?

From a legal standpoint, you're utterly incorrect. And the same is true from a practical standpoint. It all goes back to a well known issue in economics known as the commons problem. Businessmen will always want to privatize their profits and socialize their costs. It's one function of government to keep them in check.

John S

Seriously, I thought Republicans wanted LESS government intrusion into people's daily lives.

Seriously, I thought Republicans believed in law and order. The "people" you refer to break the law every day in multiple ways.

How then can you justify the enormous intrusion of the government dictating who you can and can't employ

I can "justify" it because one of the governments few valid functions is to secure the borders and set immigration policy. That is not a task given to each and every person to decide for themselves, which is what you are calling for.

You'll be demanding the right to mint your own money next. Who is the government to dictate to you what medium of exchange you must use?

ID cards are meant to control the movement of people. ID cards are issued by fictions. Agents of the fiction can look at the ID - but for what purpose?

It has always been an inalienable right in America to move around the country without being hindered in that movement without probable cause.

Today probable cause has been distorted to seaching an elderly invalid trying to board a plane - and much more on our highways.

If a national ID card becomes accepted by the people it will open up a pandoras box of abuses at the whim of a faceless government that is not a human being.

We have to remember our roots. Security and liberty are two different things. In our country liberty has always been more important than security.

The shift in our country from liberty to security is unsettling. It has lead to many abuses of innocent people by the agents of the fiction (government.)

After National ID cards will come the confiscation of our guns, then we will be herded like cattle at the whim of the fiction.

It seems we are forgetting our roots. High tech and terrorist threats does not change that we are human beings.

Remember that we are Americans - and our way of life stands out from the rest of the world because of our love for liberty.

An ID card issued to us by the fiction (government) tells everyone that we are owned by the fiction. What happens to our sovereignty when we accept a national ID card? We lose it to the fiction. Now all we can work toward is becoming a human doing.

Ahhh, another Ron Paulista.

One of our unalienable rights is not to have to carry an ID card.

Can you provide any reference for this? Is it in the Constitution? The Declaration? The Federalist Papers?

We already have an ID card. It's called your Social Security card.

Jim Harris

Seeing the elephant requires amnesty.

For the illegal aliens, or for you and the other illegal employers? You can dress up your law breaking in all the noble sounding rhetoric you want, but you are still breaking the law.

ID cards are meant to control the movement of people.

If you want America to contine to exist, we need to control the movement of non-Americans into it. But I gather that you think America is a "fiction".

It has always been an inalienable right in America to move around the country

It has been a right for Americans to be able to do this. Non-Americans don't have that right.

ID cards are issued by fictions.

You'll be telling me the USS Ronald Reagan is a fiction next I suppose.

Ahhh, another Ron Paulista

This clown aspires to being smart enough to become a Paulista, one day when he grows up.

John S

also, I'm in favor of deportation of illegals who break the law

Do you ever look at what you write before you hit 'post"? 100% of illegals break the law. That's why we call them "illegals". To do something illegal is to break the law.

It's like trying to explain calculus to a toddler.

Can you provide any reference for this? Is it in the constitution? the Declaration? The Federalist Papers?

I sure can - How about the 10th amendment to the constitution.

I take it you need instructions for everything you do? I also take it you don't know what a fiction is? What world do you live in?

"It has been a right for Americans to be able to do this. Non-Americans don't have that right." What is your point?

I wonder if those who oppose National Bio-Metric ID cards fully understand that there is far far more personal information available in private hands, bought, sold and traded among unregulated companies, than exists on these same persons within the entire local, state, and federal government? The strawman of "the government" using a national ID to intrude into our lives is just that, and a flimsily constructed strawman, at that.

We are the only industrial nation, a nation of 300 million people, that does not have a standardized national form of identity.

Back when the Founders had this nifty idea of a nation, most localities knew who was living where, and who interacted with whom. Even in my childhood we knew every family on the street, and knew most of their relatives as well. The idea of a "stranger" showing up was novel, and we were taught to run from strangers, and all that grade school stuff.

How many people today, in cities or in the suburbs or small towns know who lives where, and who those people are? In the house next door, two doors down? Across the street?

As a simple matter of national security, a national ID card makes sense. Having open borders is one thing. Having a diaspora of unknowns flowing at will in and out of neighborhoods, workplaces, and communities within those borders makes no sense at all. Such also abets the rising rampant pedophilia that has hit every major American community over the past decade. If the Dems try to stack all debate about "it being for the children" then why do they refuse to actually establish something that will make it easier to protect those same children?

But, what is worse, is having a segment of our population, vocal segment at that, and a segment of our judiciary and legislatures, failing to see their duty to protect Americans (legal residents and legal immigrants included) from enemies foreign and domestic.

When we refuse to secure our borders we no longer have the ability to secure our persons.

The oft used mythos that all illegals are merely here so they can take part in the American dream is just that...a myth. Can't seem to find anything that proves members of MS-13 are here to realize the American dream...you know, home, job, family, be an contributing active part of a vibrant society.

When the first "amnesty" was granted, we trusted those affected with following the liberal rules we as a nation laid out. We did not expect that this amnesty would result in millions more heading our way to take advantage of our short-sighted largesse. Our error. A big error. Time to correct that error.

Can anyone provide the name of a single civilized nation, a prosperous nation, a nation of law, allows even a fraction of the number of illegals we allow? In raw numbers or percentage of population. If all the other nations of the world capable of maintaining civic government and their own defense, to include Mexico, make it a crime for a person to sneak in illegally, why are we somehow forbidden from doing the same?

First, secure our borders. Wall, fence, electronic countermeasures, whatever works in that particular location. Next, enforcement ofverification of national SSAN's by employers is needed, as well as for schools, and services. Next, a standardized bio-metric ID card, such as that carried by members of our Armed Forces, for all citizen, legal residents and legal immigrants neeeds to be established, sooner rather than later. Then, a methodic identification of illegals and those who hire them or aid and abet their presence here. If there is a legitimate reason for asylum, there are already means toward that end on the books. If there is a need for their labor, than we have the means to offer these illegals legalization, not naturalization, not citizenship, but an opportunity to come out of the shadows and be granted a choice. Legalize or go home. After a period of one year, make it mandatory for any illegals determined to still be here to be summarily deported and prevented from ever re-entering the United States. If legal immigres can do the step by step walk to legal immigration, why should illegals be given a leg up on them?

But, so long as we have so many trying to obfuscate the real issues with everything from charges of racism to ultra-libertarian nonsense we will find, over the next few years, depressed wages for lower and middle class workers, continued wholesale exploitation of illegal immigrant labor, exhaustive burdens placed on our social services sectors, and a denial of essential services to citizens and legal residents and legal immigrants. And for what?

Because we are afraid to offend anyone by asserting our Right to secure our own borders?

"It has been a right for Americans to be able to do this. Non-Americans don't have that right." What is your point?

The point is that a national ID card would serve to restrict the movement of non-Americans, not of Americans.

How about the 10th amendment to the constitution.

Are you trying to say that the 10th amendment prohibits a national ID card? Please elaborate. List for me all the laws which have been struck down because they ran afoul of the 10th amendment.

I also take it you don't know what a fiction is?

I know what a fiction is, and the government of the United States is not a fiction. Ask Saddam Hussein.

This 'judge', for the most trivial and ignorant of rationalizations, has compromised the sovereignty of this country.
We should start enacting our reduced sovereign status by disregarding rulings from this Judge.

"The point is that a national ID card would serve to restrict the movement of non-Americans not of Americans."

How do you figure that? Many americans are transients just like the illegals. Go down within 100 miles from our southern border and you have customs agents stopping and seaching americans as well as suspected illegals at check points set up at random.

Customs agents can sense an illegal without needing to see an ID card. Why is it so hard to tell an american? If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck can't we call it a duck? what is so hard about that? If they mistake 1 in 10,000 so what! No one is perfect and no law can make anything bulletproof.

To stop and check the ID of everyone on the highway is an infringement of their 4th amendment rights. That will happen if a National ID is issued. It restricts the movement of everyone legal and illegal.

Our problem with illegal immigation is that we are overwhelmed by it. People can report illegals but good luck with enforcement. There are no teeth in our present laws. To my knowledge Arizona is now throwing them in jail instead of taking them back across the border and they are going after employers for hiring them. The federal government is doing nothing and you want them to issue ID cards so they can harrass us?

"Are you trying to say that the 10th amendment prohibits a national ID card? Please elaborate?"

The federal government started out in the 10 sq. mile area of DC and federal statutes were supposted to stay there. This amendment makes that clear but has been ignored because we have federal statutes accepted by many states. The states would have to accept a national ID card issued by the federal government. How many states do you know that would want to do that?

"I know what a fiction is, and the government of the United States is not a fiction. Ask Saddam Hussein."

If you know that the UNITED STATES is not a fiction then why don't you ask the UNITED STATES to come forward and talk to all of us? The UNITED STATES is not flesh & blood like the soldiers that went to Iraq and took Saddam Hussein out.

And because the UNITED STATES is not flesh & blood it is important that we elect responsible representatives (flesh & blood) to run that fiction and keep it working for the benefit of the people.

Back 4000 years ago when the ancients were watching the stars and recording what was happening in nature when the star formations were at a certain degree in the night skies, they began to get confused about their significance and started worshiping them a gods.

I see many people today doing the same thing with this fiction we call government. Government serves a purpose for creating law and order in our society. It is not a god - it is a tool our creator gave us to manage our affairs so we can live our god given rights in harmony.

Go down within 100 miles from our southern border and you have customs agents stopping and seaching americans as well as suspected illegals at check points set up at random.

And how does this restrict the movement of Americans? Are they stopped and arrested? Stopped and sent back?

Customs agents can sense an illegal without needing to see an ID card.

This may be true, but you cannot arrest somebody based on your "sense". It requires evidence.

There are no teeth in our present laws.

Returning to the topic of this thread, one reason why there are no teeth in our current laws is that judges won't allow illegals to be fired.

The federal government is doing nothing and you want them to issue ID cards so they can harrass us?

Why would a national ID card result in the Federal government harassing us? They already have all this information on us, it's just that the different agencies are not allowed to share it for themselves for the purpose of enforcing the immigration laws.

They CAN share it among themselves for other purposes. As for the government "doing nothing", it is attempting to do something here and you are screaming about it.

The UNITED STATES is not flesh & blood

You seem to work from your own private dictionary. The world is mostly made up of things which are not flesh and blood, but they are not fictions.

Back 4000 years ago when the ancients were watching the stars and recording what was happening in nature when the star formations were at a certain degree in the night skies, they began to get confused about their significance and started worshiping them a gods.

Zeus does not exist. The United States does. As does its government.

I'm not impressed by your dime store philosophy. Nobody is saying that we need to worship government as a god, or denying that it exists to serve the people who made it. Stop attacking these silly strawmen.

Using your definition of the word, America is a fiction. So is General Motors, the Catholic Church, the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, Japan, Germany, the Boy Scouts, the conservative movement, the liberal movement, Al Queda, families, and each and every instance in which two or more people combine to work for a common goal.

Save your sophomoric remarks for your fellow teenagers. I'm sure they think you are very deep.

The UNITED STATES is not flesh & blood like the soldiers that went to Iraq and took Saddam Hussein out.

Using your goofball definition, "soldiers" are a fiction. And so is the US Army. These are collective terms used to describe large groups of flesh and blood individuals. Private Smith is not acting in his capacity as an individual, but as a member of a "fiction". His actions are those directed by the "fiction", not his own will.

"And how does this restrict the movement of Americans? Are they stopped and arrested? Stopped and sent back?"

Americicans are stopped on the highway without probable cause. If the federal government was serious about doing something about the immigration problem I would go along with their silly game. But until the govenment does get serious I don't want to play.

"This may be true, but you cannot arrest somebody based on your "sense". It requires evidence."

And what may this evidence be? Not carrying a national ID card? And what good is evidence if we are not serious about this problem of illegal immigration? What is your solution?

"Judges won't allow illegals to be fired."

Illegals are not subject to our laws so how can they be fired? Maybe you need to ask your fellow americans that hire them why they are hiring them? You come down on me for my goofball ideas but we are in the same boat brother.

"Why would a national ID card result in the Federal government harassing us?"

How about because they can. You think a national ID card will somehow help with the illegal immigration problem but you are not thinking this out very well. The federal government cannot issue ID cards unless the states agree. Why? Because it is out of their juristiction. And I won't vote for any politician in my state that pushes for it.

If you really think about it federal statutes punish. they can keep them in DC. You are obviously not a constitutionalist.

"You seem to work from your own dictionary."

Perhaps I do. Fictions do have substance and work for or against us - and they are soulless - that is their difference from the flesh and blood.

"I'm not impressed by your dime store philosophy. Noboby is saying that we need to worship government as a god, or denying that it exists to serve the people who made it. Stop attacking these silly strawmwnr."

How many people do you think pray to their god for all kinds of things? Plenty! How many people are going to the federal government to give them all sorts of benefits? Plenty!

I am not against the federal government. I just want to see it back in it's basic function. The government is so busy trying to please everyone that it can't even perform it's basic functions like immigration control. It acts with regulations to control a problem - not solve it.

"Using your definition of the word, America is a fiction."

That is not my definition of America brother. America to me is an ideal - to be perpetuated. Arn't we in Iraq trying to perpetuate the American system?

I can see from your remarks that you don't like what you read. Perhaps you need to reconsider.