Captain's Quarters -

About damn time! Seems everything connected with our European "partners" is a one-way street.

There came a point in time here in the U.S. when the Left was at its pinnacle of surrender fervor regarding the War in Iraq - the claims of 90% of Americans wanted out flew each day and Harry Reid said, "we've lost." At that point in time, President Bush did the reevaluation and to the amazement of his rivals, his answer was to INCREASE troops levels in Iraq rather than take the Dem solution and turn tail and run.

My point is, that along the way in Western Europe, those leaders found themselves in similar situations and caved. They gave in to the moonbats, the surrenderists, the leftists, the dhimmis.

The French, the Italians, the Spaniards and the Germans are all now handcuffed by those decisions of surrender. They took their fingers out of the dike and there isn't a way they can muster even 100 troops to send to Afghanistan at this point.

Now, if you look back at that decision time for President Bush, when he announced "The Surge" strategy, many of the Dems in Washington used the canned phrase, "we should be sending troops to the real war on terror in Afghanistan".... At that point in time, I mentioned that if we withdrew/surrendered in Iraq, there was NO WAY that ANY American troops would ever go to Afghanistan. It was obvious that what had happened in Europe, would happen here. As soon as any troops would have been pulled out of Iraq, there would have been a bill introduced in Congress restricting any deployment to Afghanistan, and that would have been followed by Phase Two of the Dem Surrender Policy which would have called for a full withdrawl from Afghanistan.

There will be no troops going to Afghanistan from Western Europe - they are now owned by the moonbats.

Everytime I see a commenter talk about the EU has a military force as big as or larger than the US, I can only imagine that it must be at home in bed.

I never understood what the US was doing there in the first place. No matter which side we took, we lost - and our allies were all about stabbing us in the back while they shopped at our exchange and bitched that the TV's weren't 220volt.

This is actually much more significant than it sounds. The US has been presuring the EU to impose Kosovo independence for a while now (in violation of the Kosovo ceasefire which established that Kosovo could only become independent by mutual consent of Kosovo and Serbia). The only thing that has kept a lid on pro-independence violence there is the US statements that it is time for Kosovo to be independent. If US forces leave, the Albanian Kosovars will probably take it as the US giving up on Kosovo, and probably start an insurgency against the KFOR forces there. The US is basicly telling the NATO countries: 'Either fight in Afghanistan or fight in Kosovo. Your choice, but you are going to have to fight somewhere.'

Still a question in my mind ..........whether NATO command should engage outside of the NATO countries anyway.

We will not be able to rely on others to do our work.

Better to disengage from NATO me thinks. Pull out some forces from Germany ......most definitely from Ksovo too. We may have backed the wrong side there.

We should be out of there anyway. You would not believe the foulness that goes on there. Kosovo has become one of the centers of the world sex trade, in some cases actively supported by the NATO forces and inany case enabled by our presence. Get our troops stuck in with some nice wholesome Al Qaeda and let the Eurotrash clean up their own sewage...

As already stated, about damned time. Unfortunately, our footprint will still be too large in the Eurabian quagmire.

Stop the Okkquepation, bring our troops home.

Kosovo was Bill and Hillary Clinton's baby. The need for U.S. intervention demonstrated how dependent the Europeans are on our military. Because it was Muslim v. Atavistic Christian, the military campaign also supposedly demonstrated the tolerant, secular side of the modern West to Muslims. And the Muslim threat to the West seemed far more remote and ill-defined at that time, if you believed that it existed at all. The events of 9/11 disabused us of the notion that Kosovo persuaded Muslim extremists we, NATO, and the UN were the good guys.

I agree with you, Ed, that the Bush Administration should have tested the Europeans far earlier. As Iraq begins to fall into place, and Bhutto's return promises to undermine the strength of the Muslim extremists in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Condi Rice's policymakers finally can begin to prioritize where our resources are best directed. That's clearly to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Given European weakness and the events of 9/11, Kosovo proved to be the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. In other words, it was a Clinton distraction.

At this late date, U.S. disengagement from Kosovo will expose the failure of the combined Clinton-European foreign policy, and will create another flash point for Muslim-Christian conflict very close to the European homelands. With the sizeable Muslim populations in the European homelands, Europe will have to make an early choice about whether to put a military presence in Kosovo sufficient to suppress all of the warring groups. The Serbs may have something to say about that, as may the restive Muslim populations in Europe.

FINALLY!!! Now, get our troops out of Germany,
and anywhere else on the planet!!

Wouldn't that be isolationism if we pull out of Kosovo? Wouldn't that encourage whoever we are fighting or policing there to strike us here at home?

The leading European countries have been experiencing good economic growth. The Euro is a very strong currency. There are very few trouble spots in Europe. So why can't the Europeans look after their own problems?

The US military is stretched thin. The US dollar has lost much of its value, largely because of deficit spending that supports our international commitments that also benefit Europe.

It's time for the countries that are not pulling their weight to step up.

This is a long overdue move. It will be amusuing to watch the European reaction to this. Various people in Germany have been after us to leave for a long time, but when Rumsfeld actually announced it, the caterwauling was long and loud.

Frankly, the performance of the non-Anglo NATO powers in Afghanistan has been miserable. The only thing the French and the Germans have been good for is passing out candy. I think that it is high time for NATO to be replaced by a more workable and effective organization.

Have we only been in this 'un-authorized' war for 8 years. Shrillary's favorite general lost if and was fired. What is he doing besides fighting a war to stay around Shrillary?

All we're doing in Kosovo is supporting the Muslim push to ethnically cleanse the area of Christians. If we aren't going to defend the Christians, we should pull out.

"If NATO allies have not sent more troops, trainers and equipment to Afghanistan by then, Washington will consider pulling its 1,600 troops out of NATO's Kosovo force KFOR."

NATO's KFOR? I thought KFOR was a UN controlled force? It may be lead by NATO (meaning that most of the troops, as always, are from NATO countries, especially America), but it is under control of the UN. That alone is reason enough for us to pull our troops out.

OK. Let's recap. This war was NOT authorized by the UN (ergo, an "illegal war"). It did not have, nor does it now have, "a plan". It is most definitely a "civil war" with no political reconciliation in sight. And after 8 years, it is twice as long as WWII, and 3 years longer than Iraq. Ergo, "quagmire" squared.

Why aren't the Democrats plotting to cut off funding and condemning the President who started it? Also, why isn't Moron.org printing a full-page ad in the NYT accusing Wesley Clark (correctly) of "betraying us"?

Posted by Sue | October 21, 2007 1:53 PM

FINALLY!!! Now, get our troops out of Germany,
and anywhere else on the planet!!

You're a retard.

It was not in our interest to ever be in Kosovo. We should not be threatening. We should be leaving but only because we didn't leave earlier. We should only go to war when it is in our interest, not just because someone is nasty somewhere in the world. Kosovo was never our fight.

While we are at it why not pull the 36,000 plus from Korea along the DMZ. Strikes me, they are just artillery fodder these days.

I agree, patrick. We should have left Korea decades ago. Also, we should have left Germany after the USSR fell.

We're losing in Afghanistan. (InstaPundit has a link.)

Afghanistan produces 50% of the world's top quality opium. Production is UP. And, this time around, it's the Taliban protecting it.

I guess that's gonna always be a problem, no?

Opium is "consumable." Profitable like nothing else. And, Afghanistan farmers took only one thing from the USA: BETTER ROADS!

We built them wide. and high up into the mountain ranges. And, that's what the growers wanted from us. PERIOD.

When we were going at Tora Bora, again, I realized we had to pull some of those super structures OUT.

Let them live like the savages they are!

But stop them from being conduits. (Not necessarily on the drug trade. Because there are so many special interests involved. From the growers. To the peasants who love it along the trails. No, at better speeds than before; but they can "move it along" on goats).

And, once on its way to market, the market rules.

I think Rudy is right about one thing. Americans haven't heard the truth spoken by Bush EVER! And, evenutally BULL SHIT doesn't sell ideas. And, whatever it is we're doing on this "War on Terror," Bush is a disgrace.

PUtting a big job in the wrong hangs.

Want to win in Afghanistan? Legalize Opium. FAT CHANCE!

Or be honest with the American people. Tell them why you need another approach.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban were killing the locals.

Opium kills world-wide.

And, they've increased production!

You think they like us?

Nah.

I look forward to better discussions, ahead.

Lots of secrets are gonna come flying out of what Bush has been up to.

By the way, we're doing okay in Irak. Though it was Bush's idea to take Saddam out (even before 9/11). So the saud's could get the real estate.

Bush is nothing more than the saud's Realtor.

US troops in Germany provide some check on Russian belligerence. US troops in the Korean DMZ provide the came function against China. Our presence in those places is thus in our national interest.

US troops in Kosovo provide....what, exactly? I am in favor of leaving. Make the Euros suffer the consequences of their policies.

Darn those Clintons and Democrats, getting us involved in endless foreign wars with no plan for victory...

planetgeo said:

"OK. Let's recap. This war was NOT authorized by the UN (ergo, an "illegal war"). It did not have, nor does it now have, "a plan". It is most definitely a "civil war" with no political reconciliation in sight. And after 8 years, it is twice as long as WWII, and 3 years longer than Iraq. Ergo, "quagmire" squared.

Why aren't the Democrats plotting to cut off funding and condemning the President who started it? Also, why isn't Moron.org printing a full-page ad in the NYT accusing Wesley Clark (correctly) of "betraying us"? "

You left out one part-President Bill assured the idiots who re-elected him that we'd be out of Kosovo "by Christmas". He just didn't say WHICH Christmas.

Oh, and you also forgot to mention that Clinton gave Halliburton some work in Kosovo...pure evil, that guy.

Let me see if I have this right: President Bush, through his Secretary of Defense, has threatened a military/political alliance of absolutely no purpose that should our fellow allies not help us impose Shari'a Law on behalf of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, we will withdraw our aggression against Orthodox Christians in Serbia where we prop up an Islamic state in Kosovo?

How, exactly, is the anti-jihadist right supposed to be gladdened by any of this?

Rummy knew all along that Europe, old Europe, was not going to help. Gates is just coming to it.

I've got to hand it to Del Dolemonte.

He has accurately summed up the situation in Kosovo.

And of course, it is the same reason that in Iraq, this whole national unity government bit along with constitutional democracy formation makes no sense.

Everybody but the neocons appears to know how it works. Conservatives certainly do.

First, a group of people with shared cultural values, wants, desires, and goals form a cohesive group.

This cohesive group forms a civil society.

Over the next SEVERAL decades, the civil society forms ingrained institutions such as private property rights, free markets, and other constitutional orders that reflect the society’s culture.

These institutions lead to elections within a constitutional framework.

The whole notion that you can start at the end, by holding elections, and work backwards, boggles the mind.

The Republican party is the last entity that I would have expected to accept such a hair-brained scheme. But then, the idea did not come from most Republicans. It came from a small clique that hijacked the party.

The problem is not that the people of Mesopotamia are evil, or that they do not want and deserve liberty and freedom -- they do.

The problem is that some outside force that didn’t know what it was doing came in and screwed up the procedure for getting there.

Not that is is a bad thing to pull out of Kosovo, but is this the American way of telling the Albanians that they must negotiate a settlement with Belgrade?

Sounds like good news...

I post this first without reading the comments so I can get down what I think.

"But upon the advice of senior military officers, the Pentagon chief has extended the U.S. commitment to Kosovo to summer 2008. If NATO allies have not sent more troops, trainers and equipment to Afghanistan by then, Washington will consider pulling its 1,600 troops out of NATO's Kosovo force KFOR."

Again with the senior military officers. Is this for a tactical or strategic reason. Or maybe they do not want to increase the inventory of available troops.

If the US left the Balkans the Euros would fold and the Soviets (yes they are back) would be back in control of policy in the area.

"The problem is that some outside force that didn’t know what it was doing came in and screwed up the procedure for getting there."

You make the mistake of taking the rhetoric at face value. The war in Iraq isn't a humanitarian mission for the betterment of the Iraqi people despite window dressing to the contrary.
The United States isn't spending hundreds of billions of dollars to help out a nation of muslims.

Troll Feeder says the following.
"US troops in Germany provide some check on Russian belligerence. US troops in the Korean DMZ provide the came function against China."

I don't dispute that. Babies won't learn to crawl if they are always carried. Neither the West Europeans nor the South Koreans have carried their weight for decades. The South Koreans want to unite with the North. Let them choose their own hell. Why should the West Europeans give up their month long vacations when the stupid Americans will take care of everything and they can despise them at will.

Just to emphasise a comment made in the original piece – second to the USA the British forces have had the largest number of casualties in Afghanistan and are heavily involved in the dangerous southern areas – the Canadians are next. Just wanted to remind you that you are talking about ‘mainland’ Europe, I would hate for us to be tarred with the same brush!

Jose

I don't really have a problem with that observation. My only problem is this:

The invasion of Iraq will create a dysfuntional government or an illiberal shiite theocracy allied with Iran.

How does that help with oil and who sold us on the notion it would?

Posted by pigpen | October 22, 2007 12:29 AM

Not that is is a bad thing to pull out of Kosovo, but is this the American way of telling the Albanians that they must negotiate a settlement with Belgrade?

No, this is because the general assessment is that if Kosovo does not get independence fairly soon there will be another uprising. The US military doesn't want US troops caught up in that, so we are leaving. Of course, our leaving will probably hasten the onset of the uprising because the Kosovars have seen the US as their champion, and if their champion leaves, then it will be up to them to get what they want.

The diplomatic situation is intractable. The Kosovars want total independence. The Serbs reject that and emphasized that by passing a new constitution last year that reaffirmed Kosovo's status as an integral part of Serbia. The Russians are backing the Serbs because it gives them a great presure point on both the US and the EU.

The only thing that has been keeping a lid on the entire situation is the fact that the US has stated in the last year publicly that it is time for Kosovo to be independent. This has kept the Kosovar somewhat calm. If we leave, then it will appear that we have given up on their cause, so they will have to reason not to resort to force.

The EU knows that too. They won't support unilateral Kosovar independence because that would open up all kinds of nasty possibilities all over Europe. So, this becomes a place where the US can really put presure on the NATO countries to step up in Afghanistan.

The Europeans now have three choices;

1) get seriousl about Afghanistan.

2) get ready to fight in Kosovo.

3) abandon Kosovo, at which point the Serbs will go in and settle the score from 1999.

I think the US calculation is that getting serious about Afghanistan is the least objectionable of the NATO options.

Maybe pulling out of Kosovo?

It will never happen because, in the end, we will not have the guts to do it.

I hope I'm wrong, however.

Ahhhh....the tinfoil hatted leftist loon comes out from under his rock to slime: Christoph, 10-21 at
5:12 p.m., grow up.

burt 2007-10-22 06:55

Yeah, I'd like the Koreans and the Euros to stand for themselves rather than mooching off of us, too. Or they can stew in the hells of their own making, as you say. I have no problem with that.

On the other hand, however, I think that the US has a direct interest in checking the aggressiveness of Russia and China. Much as I disapprove of the South Korean and the Western European attitudes towards defending themselves, I believe that our own national interests probably require us to not leave it to the B-teams.

Certainly a debatable issue.

Let’s see; we went into Kosovo without a congressional mandate or a UN one. We were to get out quickly, by Christmas if my memory is correct. Yet we are still there in Europe’s backyard, not ours. I understand why we got involved and I was not against it at the time, but it is about time that Europe accepted responsibility for their own turf.

Jennifer, I was not intending to tar the British. They are the exception which proves the rule on this subject.

Next,pull the military out of South Korea, then anywhere in Europe, out of Kalifornia.

You all are a bunch of dopes.

The Yanquis will never leave Kosovo.

Have you ever heard of Camp Bondsteel?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-bondsteel.htm

This base is essential for the Yanqui imperialist plans for control odf the Middle East.

Or maybe you all thought it was to spread freedom?

Sue,

We already tried pulling our troops back behind our borders, and reducing their numbers to nearly insignificant levels. And what did we wind up with?

google "America First" and see what pops up in the pre-WWII timeframe. You truly need to understand the full ramifications of your position.

We are a merchantile state, and a merchantile state that fails to protect its raw materials is an ex-merchantile state. There are reasons we enjoy the nice standard of living we have -- and part of those reasons is the "big stick", which is the fallback when diplomacy fails. The "big stick" is necessary unless you are French or German, in which case you've got amnesia about Czechoslovakia and Poland (which the Czechs, Slovaks, and the Poles have not, because they are among our big supporters).

What do you think is going to happen when Iran goes nuclear? Are they going to be sane and sit on their nukes like we and the soviets did? Are you feeling lucky today? And, if you aren't, isn't it comforting to have American troops forward-deployed within striking distance of Iran ?

Personally, I'm quite happy to have our well-armed and well-trained soldiers standing before me actively preventing the next Al-Qaeda attack upon unarmed civilians. I wouldn't stand a chance against an armed terrorist, so I'd rather they get all worked up and try to go after the mujikillers who do quite well at capping them.

Mercantilism is the 19th century economic theory that convinced European states that spending blood and treasure for god-forsaken parts of the world was actually beneficial to their economies. In so far as I remember, it also had nothing to do with capitalism or freemarket economics.